Questions for the Elite among us

[Kixx]

Now first of all let me say that I am not one of the elite players in this game. I'm decent and only as good as I am because of the help of guildies. My loot is above average and I've completed every raid in the game only with PUG's and guild groups. Now my question is directed to those among us that excel at this game and are able to do all of the legendary feats that I hear about but have never personally seen myself( Not that they don't happen/aren't possible, I've just never seen them done myself) My question is this, What would you like to see added to the game's content to make it more challenging? I realize that the concept of D&D is group based adventures( to my extremely limited knowledge of D&D) and so when I see post and hear about people soloing the Reaver it makes me think that those things should just not be possible. Now I'm not saying anything negative about those of you who have the talent enough to do these things, but just that in my mind this game is supposed to be designed to require a group of players working together to accomplish a common goal. It just makes me wonder what if anything that you "Supermen" out there get out of playing the game since it doesn't appear to be that challenging to you?

Now this is not a negative post on my part at all. I'm manily wanting to acquire knowledge from those more knowledgable than myself. Like this, Can a rogue solo any end boss? How about a cleric? Because these things just are so far beyond my skillset with this game. I realize that the goal you set before some players is that one day maybe they'll get good enough to beat the end bosses solo but then what? What do you guys do for fun in the game? Is real D&D like this, cause I've never played PnP DnD but my friend who does tells me that these things should not be possible. Something about CR ratings of monsters being so much higher than the chars we're able to play. Lastly, I'm trying to improve my playstyle to get closer to you top players but what do I do when/if ever I get there and are you happy that you got there so easily(if it was indeed easy as some posters tend to claim). Thanks for any replies

[Dkmafia]

Alot of what makes these feats possible is AI flaws, not so much super skills. While a good build, gear and play style is common factor, it's an exceptional understanding of AI, aggro and mob tactics that allow some to excel nore so then then the above.

To answer what would make this harder. A fear of death. Shrines the way used to be (one use only) combined with NO RECALLING. I think this would be an easy system to implement. I would only ask that this be a new setting or added to elite. I am not as interested in loot as the majority of bored players, I love the challenge/fear of death. I like to do the impossible using tactics, passing aggro, utilizing every skill in the party and designing the perfect party makeup for any given quest.

Similar to those late night pugs were you have a terrible party makeup and go through a quest you shouldn't be doing, but manage to make it through. Thats DDO to me.

Also the fact that quests are easy to memorize. I wish they at least had random spawning mobs/traps etc (which they have taken a step towards). But combine this with harder traps and/or traps that spawn battles (ambushes). Possibly even boss ambushes.

[hellfyreii]

Yea the ability to not recall in and out of quest would make things a bit more difficult, less rest shrines in certain quests would make it more difficult.
Having puzzles that actually involve the usage of more then 1 or 2 people to sovle which is realli the max number needed in any of the puzzle / maze quests. Still lots of AI issues like in reaver raid the air elementals wont aggro from across the room, that need to be addressed. Mobs should have more varied tatics then they use right now .

Have more traps that are actually deadly..

[PurdueDave]

It's easy enough to just not to use shrines or recall. I don't know that DDO needs a mode for enforcementing it.

[Strakeln]

It's easy enough to just not to use shrines or recall. I don't know that DDO needs a mode for enforcementing it.Yeah, I agree. When I solo a quest, I don't recall and I've rarely been close enough to rez at a shrine. For me, recalling equates to starting over. But I have no desire to force *my* standards onto anyone else.

OP - you asked if there was any raid that class X/Y/Z could solo. I would argue that any class can solo the Demon Queen. I would also say that any caster could solo the Reaver (note: for purposes of discussion, "caster" == wiz/sorc/cler, maybe bard).

[kaishaku]

Don't recall, don't use shrines more than once.

Let everyone else play as they do now.

[Casta]

Random puzzles and traps, whats the point in a trap when everyone in the group knows where it is what it dose and how to get around or jump over it. The easyest way to make quests harder would be to up mob ac and saves, making them harder to hit and very hard or immune to pk would be nice.

Soloing the reaver is a bug it shouldn't be able to be done.

[Strakeln]

Soloing the reaver is a bug it shouldn't be able to be done.Bug? No. Poor design? Maybe.

[JayDubya]

The problem is, there are different ways to make something difficult.
a) It can be difficult because it is confusing, and dangerous
b) It can be difficult because it takes precision and care (Jumping, maneuvering, etc) in a stressful environment
c) It can be difficult because the opponents are far tougher than you are equipped to handle
d) It can be difficult because it requires quick mastery of a complex problem


And the challenge is that some people find each of these much harder and "unfair" than the others. The Pit, for example, is relatively easy to me, trivial for others, and wicked tough for a third group.

Others find the Pit to be no challenge at all, but would hate to try to solo the Stormreaver

Others would find a dungeon that "changed the rules" to be annoying and frustrating, because they like having "recipes"

Still others hate the idea of solving mental puzzles under time pressure, while others thrive on it.


So you'll never get one definition of "hard"

Having said that, here's my idea of hard:

1. Create another level of difficulty, with another +2 or +3 on the monster's CR, and add a Reaver-style soul capture trophy room to it. Put the release switch at the end fight, only pullable once the end boss is defeated.
2. Include constant respawns.
3. Add Monster-spammed Globe of Invulnerability or entire rooms/hallways (dis)enchanted w/Globe of Invulnerability
4. Give monsters very high DR, vulnerable to "something", which would randomly change from monster to monster, spawn to spawn. Let the players figure it out the hard way.
5. Increase monster will saves by +6 or more.



Ironically, the Stormreaver, the theoretically toughest quest in the game, is one of the most soloable by accomplished players, even though it has both 1 and 2. Because the air elementals are easily FoD/Destruct/Banished, and have crappy will saves. Oh, and the Reaver gives mana back to the caster.

But if you were to give the elementals a boost on their will saves, they would get caught in the otto's dance far less often, which would overwhelm more casters. If you were to give them a boost on their fort saves, they'd get FoDed and Destructed less often.

And if they got rid of the mana recharge on elite, it would be a lot harder as well.

[XFracture]

Most "reaver solo'ing" is done by abusing AI redundancies and usually done by individuals who are "epic'd out". You rarely hear about joe shmoe solo'ing the reaver.

Also, I've yet to see anyone claim to have solo'd the reaver on anything but normal. And if someone out there has the cajones to say that they have done so, well then I demand a screenie. I take no man's word on the forums (save a select few). That alone answers your question regarding "difficulty". While yes, this is a group oriented game, there aren't many dungeons out there that can't be solo'd at the very least on normal. By the time you're level 10 you should have well enough gear to be able to solo every mission to elite, lvl 7 and down. Again, minus a select few exceptions. Namely those requiring more then one person to advance (switches and the like).

I think the one thing that the game needs more than enything is the ommision of the kill counter. People would be less apt to run off on their own w/o that oh-so-important kill count prodding them on. That, in and of itself, I think would add a good level of difficulty to the game.

... for some players at least.

;)

[Dkmafia]

Don't recall, don't use shrines more than once.

Let everyone else play as they do now.

Everyone says this, but I constantly say that. I get "why, I dont wanna spend all day in here, the shrine is right outside. Just gonna buff and be back". It need to be rigidly enforced.

+ people would play different if the they had some fear of death, whats death now -2k XP? Who cares..

[Locathus]

A couple of quick notes (thanks to the OP for a good question and thread):

1. I find it amusing that everyone here seems to think the death penalty is too low (BTW, I agree - I just think it is funny). Didn't they have to reduce it after the level cap bumped to 12 because too many people were whining? I definitely think an increased death penalty would make the game more interesting.

2. I would like to see mobs self-buff BEFORE the players get there. This used to happen when I played FFXI - the mobs would randomly self-buff (or buff each other) while walking around. The mobs now usually seem to wait until the PCs show up, which at the very least causes them to lose actions they could be killing us with. I would also like to see more randomness in the buffing. At the moment, most of my guildies know "this guy uses displacement, so I'll pop on True Seeing before the fight".

3. Actually, the last sentence pretty much leads into my third idea. It's been said before, but the best way IMO to make the game more interesting would be to add more randomness. The fact is, the first time I did PoP it was fun and interesting. We had a group member with the Eberron sourcebook, so he filled us in on each of the planes before we went in, but we still didn't know what we would find. It was enough information to keep us from getting caught completely flat-footed (like it was obvious to put on fire resist before Fernia opened up), but we still had to adjust on the fly to the actual mobs. I know this is NOT easy to code, so I understand why the devs don't do it as much, but I would still like to see as much randomness in the game as possible. Zerging and soloing happen because people know exactly what to expect around the corner. I can solo a LOT of content on my wizard, but on a new quest I have some trouble since 3 unexpected ogres can make paste out of my character if they get the jump on me.

.

[Beorn_The_Bear]

Indeed like someone mentioned earlier, I would like to see strategy where some actions (2-3) have to be accomplished simultaneously forcing the group to split but STAY IN COMMUNICATION to then regroup ( I think one of the tomb of ....does that).

[Strakeln]

Indeed like someone mentioned earlier, I would like to see strategy where some actions (2-3) have to be accomplished simultaneously forcing the group to split but STAY IN COMMUNICATION to then regroup ( I think one of the tomb of ....does that).That's a cop-out, it just says "we couldn't make the quest difficult enough for you to bother bringing a group, so we put levers in different rooms that must be pulled simultaneously."

[Dkmafia]

I'm not sure why they lowered the death penalty. People cry about everything.

[Shade]

Most "reaver solo'ing" is done by abusing AI redundancies and usually done by individuals who are "epic'd out". You rarely hear about joe shmoe solo'ing the reaver.

Also, I've yet to see anyone claim to have solo'd the reaver on anything but normal. And if someone out there has the cajones to say that they have done so, well then I demand a screenie. I take no man's word on the forums (save a select few). That alone answers your question regarding "difficulty". While yes, this is a group oriented game, there aren't many dungeons out there that can't be solo'd at the very least on normal. By the time you're level 10 you should have well enough gear to be able to solo every mission to elite, lvl 7 and down. Again, minus a select few exceptions. Namely those requiring more then one person to advance (switches and the like).

I think the one thing that the game needs more than enything is the ommision of the kill counter. People would be less apt to run off on their own w/o that oh-so-important kill count prodding them on. That, in and of itself, I think would add a good level of difficulty to the game.

... for some players at least.

;)

2 ppl have solo'd it on elite on khyber. Theres screenshots on the server forum.

[Talon_Moonshadow]

you people live in a different world than I do. The quests are difinately hard enough......less shrines hurts mages and clerics.....but not uber melees. XP debt sucks. And will only get worse as we advance. Recall penalty sucks as well.....
I would accept not being able to recall.....and having to use the resourses in the quest. Party wipe means start over maybe. But I'm not sure I like that either. (but at least it would be more realistic)

And I hate the puzzels we have now......sita round and wait two hours while someone figures it out......I hate that. The mario brother jumping thing sucks too.
Now.....forcing people to range something would be nice!

Better AI would be nice. AI based on creature intelligence.

The monsters buff too fast now.....but I am for them buffing when an alarm goes off....or other signs of danger......resist fire would make a lot of firewalls meaningless.
Hve them throw down some gates and firewall/cloudkill from the other side like we do.......that would be something to see.
Use paralysers/vorpals on us.
Dedicated healers in the back of the mob......with globe of invulnerability cast.
Those are the kinds of things that should happen.
Stat damaging weapons.
I can think of lots of things.
Randomized traps would go a long way.
Granted most of these things should be for high lvl quests.

But if you are soloing/two/three manning any raid.....you are in a whole differnet reality then me or anyone I know.

[Valdieron]

Recalling from a quest should have the same consequences as dying - XP debt. While this won't affect many, especially those who are capped, it will make some think hard about going in to buff then recalling to shrine. The -20% HIT for recalling is a joke, especially when characters are capped and sometimes getting near to NO XP anyway.....

Like someone said, the legendary feats you see and hear about are mostly AI cheats, and building certain classes to counter these. Kudos to those who actually manage it, I think they should get out more tho ;)

[Paleale]

Turn on friendly fire.

[Dkmafia]

you people live in a different world than I do. The quests are difinately hard enough......less shrines hurts mages and clerics.....but not uber melees. XP debt sucks. And will only get worse as we advance. Recall penalty sucks as well.....
I would accept not being able to recall.....and having to use the resourses in the quest. Party wipe means start over maybe. But I'm not sure I like that either. (but at least it would be more realistic)

And I hate the puzzels we have now......sita round and wait two hours while someone figures it out......I hate that. The mario brother jumping thing sucks too.
Now.....forcing people to range something would be nice!

Better AI would be nice. AI based on creature intelligence.

The monsters buff too fast now.....but I am for them buffing when an alarm goes off....or other signs of danger......resist fire would make a lot of firewalls meaningless.
Hve them throw down some gates and firewall/cloudkill from the other side like we do.......that would be something to see.
Use paralysers/vorpals on us.
Dedicated healers in the back of the mob......with globe of invulnerability cast.
Those are the kinds of things that should happen.
Stat damaging weapons.
I can think of lots of things.
Randomized traps would go a long way.
Granted most of these things should be for high lvl quests.

But if you are soloing/two/three manning any raid.....you are in a whole differnet reality then me or anyone I know.

I agree with everything u said except that the game is to hard. Let me explain:

We used to discuss party make up, what weapon we were all gonna use, what buffs/tactics, what spells etc.. We needed those for a few select quests back in the day. Not a lot. But a few. BAM when it first came out is a good example. I couldn't take the aggro without turtling on my tank, clerics didnt have as much mana and heal was non existent. So we needed to carefully have the tank destruct them while bard/rogue cursed them, so I could try for a trip then the DPS could take them down using the least amount of resources possible cause I wouldn't allow anyone to recall (I hate that). I wanted to beat it straight up.

That was DDO to me.

I am not sure what system they use to decide the difficulty of the quest, but I would base it on the max bonus that can be applied to a party (this is on elite). I would add a paly aura and bard buffs especially.

I was in a pug recently on my new cleric (he is 8th lvl) and the guys in the pug were all pretty good, not great, but good. They kept dying in fairly easy quest due to bad tactical mistakes. Not caring about the $$ I just rezzed and watched out of curiosity. Finally the inevitable party wipe came. Now as I said, none of the players were bad, it was really a lack of communication between the players. So I started to suggest some minor changes. The most minor changes and we walked through the rest of the quest with me being bored.

There are a lot of bad habits being formed and passed down to younger players because of top players being bored. Overall player skill is deteriorating due to boredom, repetition and people being able to afford extreme builds.

When people were capped at 10 and higher lvl quests were available you NEVER saw any dual-wielders or 2hand fighters in end game content. I remember Grimstone (my old guild) maybe had 2, but they played aside our intimitanks. Even then they were still a liability, we just didnt care becasue we compensated for them. Now you hard pressed to find what I consider a tank.

Very minor tactics turn the impossible into easy.

[Ekental]

Soloing the reaver is a bug it shouldn't be able to be done.

I don't understand this part, how is it a bug? You can solo the reaver without hopping into a little cubby hole consistenly, on elite.

As for the main topic, theoretically any quest that is "soloable" by one class is doable by another.
I.e., since we're on the subject of the reaver, it is possible, for any class to go through and solo it. I'd certainly argue it's easier for a caster to do it, but if you have fun by making the game a challenge for yourself, there you have it. The harder you push yourself, the better.

The points made so far in the thread are fairly on the mark. Truly randomized traps, mob invulnerabilities, anti-magic fields, higher mob saves and hp, would all go a long way to making the quests and content more rewarding to play. Even if the loot was only upped by ... +1? 2? people would be willing to do the runs.

As for people getting "lazier", it's not only that, but many of the older players are becoming more insular. They have an established guild, people to count on, etc. Most of them aren't necessarily bringing their "A" game when they join a PUG anyways. They probably could care less about group tactics and resources, as theirs are "infinite".

"Super players" stay in the game for loot, basically. They still haven't gotten that +3 tome on every stat they want, their MFP doesn't match, they need a dragon armor of every color. Basically, you can never feel "uber" enough.

[Strakeln]

Turn on friendly fire.Whoa. Yeah, that would make the game a LOT more challenging. Yeow.

(Nuking sorcs would be a thing of the past... "USE MAGIC MISSILE OR FORCE MISSILE, THAT'S IT OR WE'RE KICKING YOU OUT OF THE GROUP") :D

[Lethelyn]

One of the huge changes between this and pnp anyways is the fact that players get enhancements. Maximized empowered Cones of cold with 18% crit and 2.25 x damage(not sure if that's the max damage multiplier) can hit for upwards of 2000 damage if the user has a superior glaciation and all the fire/cold enhancements. Resist accounts for... umm.... 30? Enhancements is what really messed with the CR system that the OP's friend mentioned. That and the SP system instead of the spell slots system. There is a variant rule for SP in PnP, but the numbers reach a max at around 250 at level 20 I believe, and that's for sorcs. Anyways, this is real time instead of turn based, some changes had to be made.

Another way to boost difficulty a little would be to allow mobs to have stronger buffs, such as Stoneskin with dr 20/- or 30/- for say 500-1000 points (Yes, I know normal stoneskin has its dr as /adamantine, but most of us know this and will switch to an adamantine weapon the moment we see stoneskin). Maybe have their Resists work for 50 - 60 points of damage. They should also start using globe of invulnerability and antimagic fields too, as already suggested. Now, that might be too much in some peoples eyes, but someone said that most of the "elite playstyle" comes down to being bored... I know that's true for me. Now, am I saying I'm elite and can solo everything? Heck no, I hate soloing. I'm just sick of running the same quests time and time again.

[JosephKell]

I think it would be funny if the bored players could log in as monsters during peak raid times and take control of monsters.

Imagine...

... Melee Monsters bee-lined for the Cleric.

... The Final Boss in Tempest's Spine suddenly started punting people doing the puzzle.

... Monsters DIDN'T stand in the cloud kill/wall of fire/blade barrier when blocked by a gate. But instead flipped a switch to open the gate and get at the wizard. Or if they just cast Neutralize Poison!

... Monsters cast Greater Dispelling on Summoned Monsters (this is why I hate players that summon Efreeti before a Beholder fight, *** are they thinking?!). (I would also like it if monsters summoned by mobs would turn on their summoners if they were freed from control.)

Even if the controls were akin to an RTS game it might make things more interesting. Heck, if a person could ONLY affect the boss fights and then only by tweaking the aggro calculator.

Say the game tracks and analyzes the performance of the players (healing, killing, etc) and then a person can see it and give players a different starting aggro value for the boss fight. So the Finger of Death Sorcerer might have a +10, the Cleric a +15, and the Barbarian a -5.

Sure the guy with a large sword is menacing, but he probably can't kill you with it from across the room, but the guy that smells of bat guano and has blackened grime under his fingernails, he can probably ruin your day.

[Hafeal]

Turn on friendly fire.

For friend and foe alike ... might stop those spamming, unlimited mana casters a bit too. :eek:

[Talon_Moonshadow]

I remember the first time I did VON 3.....what a nightmare. I also did it with my cleric for the first time at lvl 10 I think.........I was experienced but the group had an extremely hard time and I was real frustrated by my lack of mana.....and the long time it took us to do the quest.

And then last week my lvl14 toon runs through it with just me and a Ranger friend of mine.......just the two of.....and it was easy....real easy. The beholdrers killed him a couple times, but only a couple......

Yeah, we were lvl 14s on a lvl 8 quest I think, but it is amazing at how just knowing the quest and applying some good tactics will make things so much easier......but I don't think quests should be designed to try to be difficult on the 4th time through......they should be difficult, but achievable the first time through.....and once you've done it on elite.....you move on to somethig else.

Granted DDO has new content so rarely that there is nothing else for most of us......which I really wish was not the case.
The most fun I have had has been on those few quests that I have been on where no one new the quest......everyone was slow and careful....it was a lot of fun.

[Talon_Moonshadow]

Another simple AI tweak (at least IMHO). Cast Hypnotism on the party and have all of the baddies choose the same target.

Had a Shrieking Mines run where we all got stunned or dominated my a Mind Flayer and he slowy ate each of our brains in turn..........we all laughed and enjoyed it I think.