A Dual-Wielding Warchanter, the Taalisyn Build

[A_Sheep]

Reposted after the server cataclysm of 2007.

Flavor: "A radiant-browed bard if there ever was one, Taalisyn strides into combat, inspiring the Celts to resist the rude invaders of Saxony. In one hand, he wields Fflewddur, a singing khopesh, in the other Ceredigion, a base-line thumping kukri. Wielding these two, he heralds doom for all who oppose him."

Taalisyn is a high DPS melee bard who does not have significant offensive casting abilities. His DPS is equivalent to a Raging Barbarian. (although with his buffs, a Raging barbarian is indeed better)

Race: Human
Alignment: True Neutral
Class: Bard 14/Fighter 2

Abilities (32-pt):
Str 17 + 1 Human Adapt + 1 Fighter's Str + 4 levels + 6 Item +2 1750Tome +2 Rage Spell = 33
Dex 16 + 1 Tome = 17
Con 14 + 1 Human Adapt + 1 Tome + 6 Item = 22
Int 8
Wis 8
Cha 11 + 2 Bard Cha + 6 Item + 1 Tome = 20



Abilities (28-pt, no tomes required (although included favor tome)):
Str 16 + 1 Human Adapt + 1 Fighter's Str + 3 (at levels 8, 12, & 16) + 6 Item +2 1750Tome +2 Rage Spell = 31
Dex 16 + 1 (at Level 4) = 17
Con 14 + 6 Item = 20
Int 8
Wis 8
Cha 10 + 3 Bard Cha + 6 Item + 1 Human Adapt = 20

Thanks to Girevik for the 'starter' stats.

Feats:
1 - Power Attack, Extend Spell
3 - Weapon Focus: Slashing
6 - Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Khopesh
9 - Two-Weapon Fighting
11 (Fighter Bonus) - Improved Critical (Slash)
12 - Improved Two-Weapon Fighting
14 - (Fighter Bonus) Greater Two-weapon Fighting
15 - Toughness


Enhancements:
[human] - Adaptability Strength I (2)
[human] - Greater Adaptability Constitution I (4)
[human] - Improved Recovery I (2)
[human] - Human Versatility I (1)
[human] - Human Versatility II (2)
[human] - Human Versatility III (3)
[human] - Human Versatility IV (4)
[bard] - Charisma I (2)
[bard] - Charisma II (4)
[bard] - Energy of Music I (1)
[bard] - Energy of Music II (2)
[bard] - Energy of Music III (3)
[bard] - Extra Song I (1)
[bard] - Extra Song II (2)
[bard] - Inspired Attack I (2)
[bard] - Inspired Attack II (4)
[bard] - Inspired Bravery I (1)
[bard] - Inspired Bravery II (2)
[bard] - Inspired Damage I (1)
[bard] - Inspired Damage II (2)
[bard] - Inspired Damage III (3)
[bard] - Lingering Song I (1)
[bard] - Lingering Song II (2)
[bard] - Warchanter (4)
[fighter] - Item Defense I (1)
[fighter] - Haste Boost I (1)
[fighter] - Critical Accuracy I (1)
[fighter] - Strength I (2)

HP: 20 (Heroic) + 84 (22 Con) + 72 (12 Bard lvls) + 20 (Fighter Levels) + 10 Draconic Vitality = 206 before false life. Wearing Disease Immunity GFL and Minos Legens now (yay!), but I do not yet have a +6 Con ring :( (using +5), so I'm at 252 with rage...

SP: 375 Bard Base + 115 (+5 Cha) + 60 (Energy of Music III) + 100 Magi = 660 SP

UMD: 19 Ranks + 5 Charisma + 2 Good Hope + 3 Item + 1 Luck Bonus + 1 Circumstance Bonus (from Focusing Chant)= +31; + 4 Human Versatility

Inspired courage: +3 (improved inspire +2) + 2 (Inspire Attack II) +1 (Warchanter) = +6 to hit +2 Insprie greatness = +8 from songs.
+2 (Improved Inspire +2) + 3 (Inspire Damage III) + 2 (Warchanter) = +8 to damage

Skills:
19 Ranks UMD
17 Ranks Tumble
19 Ranks Haggle
15 Ranks Diplomacy (if I re-roll, I would drop this for a combo of listen and intimidate)
17 Ranks Perform
13 Ranks Jump

=====
I'm currently using +4 Holy Khopesh of Righteousness in my main hand and a +4 Holy Khopesh of Sneak Attack +1 in my off-hand. Don't really know if the sneak attack is worth it compared to a +5 Holy Khopesh I have. If I get lots of sneak attacks, it works out, otherwise I'm better off with the +5...

Damage:
1d8 Khopesh
+8 Songs
+5 PA
+6 Weapon
+11 Str
+2d6 Holy
===
1d8 + 2d6 + 30 ~ 41.5 per hit 17-20/x3 crit.

1d8 Khopesh
+8 Songs
+5 PA
+4 Weapon
+5 Str
+2d6 Holy
===
1d8 + 2d6 + 22 ~ 32.5 per hit 17-20/x3 crit.

====
Made it to cap. I haven't really used Diplomacy as much as I'd like because I never group with any real tanks, also Diplo doesn't affect a whole lot of mobs (including red-names, vermin). As long as I keep myself Displaced, there's rarely a better place for the agro to go anyways. Taal is an amazing Damage-Dealer and is far more versatile than any equivalent DPS build.

For those interested, this is my current item setup:
Head: Minos Legens (Heavy Fort + Toughness)
Neck: Open (Wear Silver Flame Amulet most of the time, but ultimate item would be DQ torque) (swap for cartouche for UMD)
Ring: +5 Constitution of Light Fort (want to upgrade to +6)
Ring: Elemental Resistance
Bracers: +6 Str Bracers RR:Halfling
Gloves: Rabbit Gloves
Trinket: Kardin's Eye
Cloak: +6 Cha Cloak (swap for Elemental Resistance cloak after I'm down a few SP)
Boots: +3 Dex Boots of Tumble +10 RR:Warforged/Kundarak Delver's Boots/Feather Fall Boots
Armor: Fearsome Robe of Improved Fire Resistance (also a few Greater Resist Robes for situational use)
Goggles: Mentau's Goggles (+4 Seeker) (Also 5/day Divine Power goggles, Visor of Flesh Render Guard goggles x3)


Current Spell Selection:
(spells in paranthesis are really personal choice)
Level 1: Focusing chant, (Remove Fear, Expeditious Retreat, Cure Light Wounds)
Level 2: Blur, Rage, (Cat's Grace, Heroism)
Level 3: Displacement, Haste, Good Hope, Cures Serious Wounds
Level 4: Freedom of Movement, (Dimension Door, Otto's Dancing Sphere)
Level 5: Mass Cure Light, Greater Heroism

So, bring on the comments if you like. I wouldn't post this build if I minded them.

[trilogysuite]

i just started this game, and I like the idea of a duel wielding bard.
Could you possibly list what I should make at character generation and list a build for me?
I would appreciate it, don't feel obligated to.

[Girevik]

i just started this game, and I like the idea of a duel wielding bard.
Could you possibly list what I should make at character generation and list a build for me?
I would appreciate it, don't feel obligated to.

First, congratulations to the OP on picking up the library shelves worth of tomes. Since that Bard is a 32-point build, it is quite possible some may have come from another character.

Second, to Trilogysuite, if you are new to the game you will not be able to follow this build. You don't have 32-point characters yet, and there are quite a few Tomes called for, which you shouldn't assume you will get on a first character in time to use them for Feat selections.

That is not to say that you can't have a fun and capable dual-wielding Bard, just not following this build precisely. (You can probably build a pretty solid Drow one if you get the 400 Favor for Drow first. You can even do it as a human, you will just have to settle for less Strength. I will putter around and see if I can come up with a starter version.)

Edit: OK, you could try this:

Tomeless 28-point Starter Version
Race: Human
Alignment: True Neutral
Class: Bard 12/Fighter 2

Abilities (28-pt):
Str 16 + 1 Human Adapt + 1 Fighter's Str + 2 (at levels 8 & 12) + 6 Item +2 1750Tome +2 Rage Spell = 30
Dex 16 + 1 (at Level 4) = 17
Con 14 + 6 Item = 20
Int 8
Wis 8
Cha 10 + 3 Bard Cha + 6 Item + 1 Human Adapt = 20

Feats:
1 - Power Attack, Extend Spell
2 (Fighter Bonus) Weapon Focus: Slashing
3 - Two-Weapon Fighting
6 - Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Khopesh
9 - Improved Two-Weapon Fighting
12 - Improved Critical (Slash)
14 - (Fighter Bonus) Greater Two-weapon Fighting

I trimmed the stats a shade to fit the 28 point budget. I did go for a third level of Bard's Charisma, which is quite expensive, but realistically you will be fiddling with the Human Adaptabilities and Bard's Charisma values based on how good of items you can lay your hands on at the time. There is no sense in buying to an odd.

I also front-end loaded the first fighter level a little more than the original poster called for. This lets you use a wider variety of slashing weapons earlier, depending on what becomes available. (Why wait to 11 to wield a Kukri in your off-hand if you pull a sweet one at level 3?)

[A_Sheep]

Yeah, I definitely did not build this as my first character :) and I had most of my tomes before generation.

This build takes very specific advantage many of the DDO game rules: Using a tome to meet ITWF requirements, taking the second fighter level at 14 to meet GTWF requirements, Khopeshes having increased critical multiplier, monsters having low AC but high HP, etc.

Girevik's 28-point adaptation keeps very well to my original build idea, but I would actually discourage dual wielding until your AC can't keep up with the enemy's to-hit, which, for a bard, I'd say is about level 10. (got to 42 AC on my original Taelisyn at 10th level and couldn't budge from there) I went shield and khopesh until 12th level.

If you really want to dual-wield early, then Girevik's level modification is for you. If you'd prefer to have solid AC and khopesh + shield your way up the ranks, then I'd suggest the same starting stats, but sticking with my original level progression.

The fighter levels give you much needed feats and base attack bonus to achieve the goal of Greater Two-Weapon Fighter at 14th level. You don't need these feats at lower levels unless you're dual-wielding. Once you get Haste (@ Bard level 7), I would condone a possible fighter splash, but the parties I'm getting into and I are just too addicted to haste to multiclass before that. :-P

P.S. If you don't have a good khopesh, I'd say drop that feat for toughness or mental toughness and roll with rapiers (also switch to weapon focus:piercing) as the next best weapon.

[A_Sheep]

I have a few thoughts on Taal now that I've been playing him alot and we'll discover (with mod6) whether I re-roll him or not.

He is definitely a "Mod 4" build and I like playing him more than any other character. He is definitely top-notch DPS (and when I say top-notch, I DO mean as much DPS as a raging barbarian). I found it fairly easy to equip him with good items for about 100,000 plat on the AH and from lucky pulls (Kardin's Eye, rabbit gloves first time through, a few improved resist cloaks and a few greater resist cloaks). I have very few bound items on him and only +1 tomes and my favor tome. Basically, I haven't invested any resources in this character.

So, what will the future bring for this guy? His mission statement is to maximize melee DPS for the entire party. The level 16 cap brings a few things I think are important: it would allow GTWF while staying pure bard and it would (baring new enhancements) allow maximum song buffage while keeping 2 levels of fighter. Otto's Resistable dance (the only lvl 6 Bard spell announced which I feel attracted to so far), is not a build-changing spell for Taalisyn. He kills things way too fast to need to turn off his extend and pop off a 35 SP spell before-hand. In the long long run, however, if there is no Superior TWF (and maybe even if there is, depending on how much it's actually worth), then Staying pure bard would be the way to go at level 20. On top of that, I'm somewhat expecting epic levels.

This guy was a blast to level! He really was. I wouldn't mind in the least doing it all over again. What I wouldn't be as hot on is 'losing' all my progress raid loot-wise. Currently, I have a ring of lies and maybe 5 completions on DQ, Dragon, and Reaver, so it doesn't mean much right now, but I'll be slowly building these up (1 raid per week?).

I am thinking of building a pure bard version of Taalisyn and levelling him up as well, so that I am covered in both cases :-P. At least then I could choose a more interesting name.

That sounded more like a blog than my normal 'impassionate' build engineering speak.

[maddmatt70]

My biggest fear of this build is the hit points. 250 hp on an aggro gathering tank might be too little especially the first 3-5 times you do a quest because you will not know what to expect in the quest. This build would have difficulty on several of the raids/ big boss fights as well without some quality healing. The primary advantage of a bard as melee class in comparison to some of the other melee is when they are dead they can still contribute via songs so for instance if you are dead in the abbot raid your presence will still linger. The real question is other then for the dwarf and maybe warforge races is the battle bard a truely viable build i.e. can you make a viable human battle bard even much less halfling, drow, etc.

[A_Sheep]

My biggest fear of this build is the hit points. 250 hp on an aggro gathering tank might be too little especially the first 3-5 times you do a quest because you will not know what to expect in the quest. This build would have difficulty on several of the raids/ big boss fights as well without some quality healing. The primary advantage of a bard as melee class in comparison to some of the other melee is when they are dead they can still contribute via songs so for instance if you are dead in the abbot raid your presence will still linger. The real question is other then for the dwarf and maybe warforge races is the battle bard a truely viable build i.e. can you make a viable human battle bard even much less halfling, drow, etc.

It is true that the HP seems a little low and there are more survivable battle bard builds out there. Consider this:

In a purely melee situation:
DPS Fighter has 400 HP -> gets hit 95% of the time (sometimes has blur for 76% hit chance, dependent on another character)
Taalisyn has 250 HP and Displacement -> gets hit 95% of the time 50% is negated by displacement (47.5% hit)

Adjusted HP (real HP/%getting hit):
DPS Fighter -> 421 HP -> 526 HP with blur
Taalisyn -> 526 HP

I have yet to discover a fighter build with more DPS than Taalisyn. (Excepting when that fighter has a bard to buff him up)

As for other sources of incoming damage: Taal's reflex and will saves are most likely higher than the fighter's (although without comparing specific builds, this is a somewhat hollow comparison).

Which one is more 'survivable'? I'd say Taalisyn. Higher DPS, ~= hit points, better saves overall, wand whip + potion chug + heal scroll.

Now, compare Taal to the right Dwarf warchanter, and it's a different story.

The question in my head is how much survivability do you need to be 'viable'? Is a 14th level fighter viable?

[maddmatt70]

Thank you for replying Sheep. I was hoping you would. I am building a similiar bard to yours although it will have a +24 con (16 con base, +1 con human adapt, +1 con tome, +6 con item) at end but is a pure bard so the hps are comparable to yours. 250 hp to me is the cusp of hp for a melee char and over 400 hp is the other end of the spectrum (not needed but nice). I was wondering honestly if you would reconsider your hp/surviveability component if you had to do it all over again.. When you build your pure bard will you take that into consideration especially in light of the abbot raid.. You mention something in your post about this being a mod 4 character?

[A_Sheep]

Thank you for replying Sheep. I was hoping you would. I am building a similiar bard to yours although it will have a +24 con (16 con base, +1 con human adapt, +1 con tome, +6 con item) at end but is a pure bard so the hps are comparable to yours. 250 hp to me is the cusp of hp for a melee char and over 400 hp is the other end of the spectrum (not needed but nice). I was wondering honestly if you would reconsider your hp/surviveability component if you had to do it all over again.. When you build your pure bard will you take that into consideration especially in light of the abbot raid.. You mention something in your post about this being a mod 4 character?

At the current cap, I can't think of any way I can improve Taal's hit points (even via rebuilding). Can't really drop any feats (except maybe extend), and I can't move much in the way of stat points to con (although I was considering dropping cha to 8, but then I lose an item slot as I have to keep my cha equiped to cast). I guess I could do Cha -> 10, Str -> 16 and take those 4 points to move con to 16, but that's a good bit to sacrifice for only a minor boost to the survivability.

I would like to be able to be bigger and burlier, but I don't want that more than having such a nice-looking DPS graph :-P.

As for Mod 4, I guess I really didn't mean much by it. Just that he's not as much of a character concept as something built specifically for the current cap.

[aldan]

Are you saying that it may be better to stay pure bard now? What was the advantage of taking the fighter anyways, the strength and ITWF feats? if the bard gets those at higher levels, then staying pure bard seems the way to go.

Your thoughts,

I have a Taal build that is slightly higher Cha only a point or two, and I guess lvl 11 and 14 are the levels to take fighter. Wondering now if I could just stay pure bard.

[Aerendil]

I'm new to the game (just finished the trial), but judging by the Fighter splash, it would seem to be for (1) improved BAB, (2) slight HP boost, and most importantly (3) fighter feats (allowing you to easily get Imp. Crit, TWF, ITWF, GTWF, Power Attack, etc.). It also gives you access to a light offhander other than Sickle, for the early levels, which is nice (Kukri and Hand Axe = martial weapons).

With the level increase, that's actually a good question. As it stands now:

Bard 12 = Song of Freedom
Bard 13 = 5th level spells
Bard 14 = Inspire Courage +3
Bard 15 = Inspire Heroics
Bard 16 = 6th level spells

So it would now seem that if you're a caster type, Bard 16 is the way to go, and for the Warchanter Bard 14 / Fighter 2 is ideal.

But again, as I'm new, this is just based on looking at stats on paper. Playing a 14/2 or 16 could be an entirely different experience ;)


I've a question of my own, too - it would seem the vast majority of builds for Warchanter are either Human or Drow. I've also seen a Dwarf build floating around, but that was rare. Are there any Elf builds using Longswords?
Just curious.


- Aerendil, the Valenar Elf Warchanter

[maddmatt70]

I hear a little pride in your question, but when you hit the 400 drow favor if your set on being an elfish sort of character you should probably reroll to a drow warchanter bard. You get the 3 +2 stats - char and dex being two of them for drow which is nice. As I stated earlier in this post - I am not sure that a melee oriented battle bard has any business not being a dwarf, warforged, or maybe human at end game. Hp and survivability are at a premium in some quests (the new abbot raid is an example of this). Some drow melee bards have rogue level with rogue skills and the like which brings something to the table beyond just melee which to me is a more feasible build.. You could be a buff and song style bard who swings a sword sometimes or heals a party member sometimes at end game, but being a heavily oriented melee battle bard as an elf, drow, etc. without several levels of melee classes is questionable at best..

[Aerendil]

Thanks for the reply Maddmatt. I'm still a long ways from endgame, having just started, so any information I can glean on where I'll be once I hit the double digits is good to know so I can plan accordingly.

The elven pride thing is I guess a combination of enjoying unique race/class combinations, and doing what most others would scoff at. Call me crazy :p
Plus from a RP standpoint, it makes sense to me for the Valenar elves, who pride themselves on combat, to have Warchanters among their ranks.
And while they don't have the super stats of Drow, nor do they have the SR, they do still get the use of longswords and longbows, which adds some versatility.
But chances are I would either splash Fighter or Rogue into the build - I haven't chosen yet :)

[A_Sheep]

Are you saying that it may be better to stay pure bard now? What was the advantage of taking the fighter anyways, the strength and ITWF feats? if the bard gets those at higher levels, then staying pure bard seems the way to go.

Your thoughts,


At the current cap, the 12/2 is great and I wouldn't change it.

Advantages of 2 fighter levels:
GTWF at the current cap
2 extra feats (basically GTWF and extend would be the 'first feats to go' if you don't take ftr levels)
+1 Str
15% haste boost
Martial Weapon Proficiencies
+8 HP

The disadvantages are about to change with the cap increase, but at the current cap they are:

No access to level 5 spells
No inspire Courage +3
No Inspire Attack III (although it costs a whooping 6 AP, so I don't know if I will take it)
Less mana, but that's a fairly minor disadvantage especially seeing as the 2 ftr version has extend whereas a pure bard would not (without giving up some other DPS feat)

With the next cap raise, these disadvantages dissappear. Bards aren't slated to receive any new DPS enhancements until (guessing) level 17 (Inspired Damage IV if they follow the current progression). However, we come up with a new set of advantages/disadvantages:

Advantages:
+2 feats (Extend + one other?)
+1 Str
+15% haste boost
Martial Weapon Proficiencies
+8 HP

Disadvantages:
No level 6 spells
No Inspire Heroics
Who knows?

As far as I've seen, Otto's Irresistable dance is the only spell I will miss :(, but if they have scrolls of it, then so what? Trading some plat for an ability to cast an irresistable incapacitation spell that will only really be needed with the toughest mobs (as anything less will be slaughtered about as quickly either way with a fully buffed party).

We've got at least 2 months until mod 6 and that's a lot of game time for me. I might not even still be playing DDO in 2 months (okay, that was an attempt I'm far too addicted for that to be true :-P).

The decision at the current cap is clear DPS-wise. The 12/2 build is 15%-20% more DPS than a pure bard 14. For Mod 6, there won't be that clear DPS distinction.

I love this character and have been playing a combat bard since I started playing. I re-rolled my longest-lasting one (Sword and board Drow 8 bard/2 fighter with a 41 AC at the 10 cap) to create this one and I expect I'll probably re-roll this guy before they close the last server. However, I don't yet have a reason worth re-rolling for.

Hope I have 'helped'!

[A_Sheep]

I've a question of my own, too - it would seem the vast majority of builds for Warchanter are either Human or Drow. I've also seen a Dwarf build floating around, but that was rare. Are there any Elf builds using Longswords?
Just curious.


- Aerendil, the Valenar Elf Warchanter

Mechincally speaking, longswords are an inferior weapon to rapiers/scimitars at end-game. Since Drow get rapier enhancements, it makes it tough to choose elf over Drow, even when you have 32-pt builds at your disposal.

Now, if it's an RP thing, then you'll probably have to adapt someone else's build to fit your RP characteristics or ask for a 'custom' build from someone. You seem knowledgable enough, though, that you'll probably have more fun creating your own build, gleaning as much info as possible from the forums.

[Mad_Bombardier]

Mechincally speaking, longswords are an inferior weapon to rapiers/scimitars at end-game. Since Drow get rapier enhancements, it makes it tough to choose elf over Drow, even when you have 32-pt builds at your disposal.Elf racial melee enhancement is Longsword and Rapier, so no loss there. Drow get Rapier and Shortsword, which is 2 weapons of the same damage type (for Improved Crit). So, you keep the option of wielding the light weapon Shortsword for less TWF penalty (even if it's statistically not as strong a weapon) and being able to take advantage of racial bonuses.

[maddmatt70]

[QUOTE=A_Sheep;1430112]
Disadvantages:
Who knows?
QUOTE]
This is the big disadvantage. For instance, I would speculate that warchanter II will come out at some point - I don't know what will be the requirements and what level it will be at.

I would also add max buffs (specifically songs) for a 12 person raid is nice to the disadvantage list. It is in part why I am making a warchanter pure bard because I want max buffs for a 12 person raid. 12 person raid vs. 6 person party has different dynamics. I am a little jealous of snowflake (song and buff bard warchanter 14 level) on an abbot raid vs. my healing bard spellsinger with one level of sorceror. :). Yes, I am building my bard with a level 16 cap more in mind then a 14 level cap.

I would also add some less sp to the disadvantage list in case otto's dance is sweet.. :)

[sigtrent]

Nice build for really getting a lot of milage from human versatility!

Good beyond that of coruse but I think that is noteworthy.

[aldan]

thanks for the help sheep.

I like my build so far, although I added slightly more Cha on my build, not much. I have lots of time to sort out the pure bard or fighter bard issue before I hit 14.

I just want to whoop some arse and be able to buff the masses to some degree. I always see bards at higher levels with leftover sp which begs the question, why build a uber high charisma bard? Seems that some degree of mixture can work.

I hear alot from my guild that you have to choose, either fighting, or cc and buff. Wish I could effectively do both.

[aldan]

One more question?

How well does the Taal build lend itself to buffing others. I know the Cha is too low to really get the spells to stick. Dont really care about dancing ball toooooo much, cause all the casters have it anyways, so its not a deal breaker.

[EinarMal]

I hear a little pride in your question, but when you hit the 400 drow favor if your set on being an elfish sort of character you should probably reroll to a drow warchanter bard. You get the 3 +2 stats - char and dex being two of them for drow which is nice. As I stated earlier in this post - I am not sure that a melee oriented battle bard has any business not being a dwarf, warforged, or maybe human at end game. Hp and survivability are at a premium in some quests (the new abbot raid is an example of this). Some drow melee bards have rogue level with rogue skills and the like which brings something to the table beyond just melee which to me is a more feasible build.. You could be a buff and song style bard who swings a sword sometimes or heals a party member sometimes at end game, but being a heavily oriented melee battle bard as an elf, drow, etc. without several levels of melee classes is questionable at best..

I don't find having ~220-240 hit points to be that big of a deal as a TWF Drow battle Bard. A_Sheep pointed out displacement, I also keep myself up with stoneskin scrolls as well. The other thing is self healing that you have to factor in. My build is not exactly like this one (it is actually a pure Bard TWF spellsinger with CC/TWF mix). Never the less I am mixing it up probably 90% of the time unless I am healing others or CC casting. The real thing to factor in, at least with my build, is cure critical, which effectively adds about 60 hit points on average as well when you need it.

So, compared to a TWF DPS fighter or Ranger I am getting hit 50% less, and taking 10 less damage per hit with stoneskin, unless they have someone keeping them constantly buffed. In addition with just one, very quick cure critical, I really have about 290-300 hit points in a fight without interrupting combat much at all.

As far as the new abbot raid, well that quest, from what I hear, everyone dies in regardless! I have not run it, and it does not sound like fun in it's current state.

Hit points are kind of funny to me, some people can never have enough and some do just fine with ~200. There are plenty of elf rogues/rangers/bards that do fine with <250 hit points. There are plenty of barbarians that I group with that must have 400 and die way more than I do! I am not bragging just an observation. If you can move and fight well and are a decent twitch gamer then a Drow battle bard works fine. For other people that can't seem to stay alive with a 400 hit point Fighter/Barb then it probably won't work out very well.

[maddmatt70]

I don't find having ~220-240 hit points to be that big of a deal as a TWF Drow battle Bard. A_Sheep pointed out displacement, I also keep myself up with stoneskin scrolls as well. The other thing is self healing that you have to factor in. My build is not exactly like this one (it is actually a pure Bard TWF spellsinger with CC/TWF mix). Never the less I am mixing it up probably 90&#37; of the time unless I am healing others or CC casting. The real thing to factor in, at least with my build, is cure critical, which effectively adds about 60 hit points on average as well when you need it.

So, compared to a TWF DPS fighter or Ranger I am getting hit 50% less, and taking 10 less damage per hit with stoneskin, unless they have someone keeping them constantly buffed. In addition with just one, very quick cure critical, I really have about 290-300 hit points in a fight without interrupting combat much at all.

As far as the new abbot raid, well that quest, from what I hear, everyone dies in regardless! I have not run it, and it does not sound like fun in it's current state.

I hear and agree with everything sheep says about displacement, but if you are going against some serious dps your first time around as an aggro gathering melee you are asking for it. An example is a scale run the first time to 4th time you ever did it with your battle bard (this assumes you did not run with your other chars 40 times). I am guessing you went down alot from comet falls and dragon's breath weapons because you were just overall squish even if you were making those reflex saves. The beholder in the abbot pre-raid and ghosts are a similiar situation. It is that massive damage output when you are not experienced with a dungeon from a red named which is where these tanks lacking hp get into some trouble. Opposing spellcasters also can present a serious issue or if you fail a save on a trap with mobs hounding you well where is your surviveability safety net? You can only heal so fast and you don't have quicken to break up concentration failures.. If you want to run the same old safe dungeons 40 times well your fine with your 220 hp aggro gathering death dealer..

It is time that I come clean with what I feel is one of the reasons for the playing populations' difficulties with the abbot raid both the new and old versions - their love of the drow (Yes i do have a drow healing/cc/buff bard). The drow are squish who cares if they get +1 to their dcs for casters they have 6 less possible con then either a dwarf or warforged, they don't have a halflings saves, they have 3 less con then a human even yet such a high % of casters are drow. The same applies to melee although fighter, paladins, and barbarians can get away with it - rogues and bards still suffer like a drow caster and clerics and ranger drow have to be built just right to survive some of these tough dungeons. All you lovers of the dps or the pretty drow who did not think that 140 hp at end game wouldn't come into play all I got to say is wow. I suppose you could invest in 3+ toughness feats to make it alright, but man..

Sheep sorry if I am hijacking your thread, I can always start a new one..

[EinarMal]

I hear and agree with everything sheep says about displacement, but if you are going against some serious dps your first time around as an aggro gathering melee you are asking for it. An example is a scale run the first time to 4th time you ever did it with your battle bard (this assumes you did not run with your other chars 40 times). I am guessing you went down alot from comet falls and dragon's breath weapons because you were just overall squish even if you were making those reflex saves. The beholder in the abbot pre-raid and ghosts are a similiar situation. It is that massive damage output when you are not experienced with a dungeon from a red named which is where these tanks lacking hp get into some trouble. Opposing spellcasters also can present a serious issue or if you fail a save on a trap with mobs hounding you well where is your surviveability safety net? You can only heal so fast and you don't have quicken to break up concentration failures.. If you want to run the same old safe dungeons 40 times well your fine with your 220 hp aggro gathering death dealer..

It is time that I come clean with what I feel is one of the reasons for the playing populations' difficulties with the abbot raid both the new and old versions - their love of the drow (Yes i do have a drow healing/cc/buff bard). The drow are squish who cares if they get +1 to their dcs for casters they have 6 less possible con then either a dwarf or warforged, they don't have a halflings saves, they have 3 less con then a human even yet such a high &#37; of casters are drow. The same applies to melee although fighter, paladins, and barbarians can get away with it - rogues and bards still suffer like a drow caster and clerics and ranger drow have to be built just right to survive some of these tough dungeons. All you lovers of the dps or the pretty drow who did not think that 140 hp at end game wouldn't come into play all I got to say is wow. I suppose you could invest in 3+ toughness feats to make it alright, but man..

Sheep sorry if I am hijacking your thread, I can always start a new one..

The only thing I can say is that I've tried it, as has A_Sheep and found the build to work, that is a TWF battle Bard with very good DPS and around ~220-240 hit points. Drow have very little to do with it, except for the broken toughness enhancements. With the requirements of a TWF battle Bard stat wise Drow come out about the same or better than 32 pt. human, warforged, or dwarf so I am not sure where the drow rant is coming from in this case.

Really the only reason for the Dwarf advantage is the racial toughness on a TWF Bard. Unfortunately in my opinion turbine made a big mistake in tying toughness to classes/races rather than feats. Taking toughness without those enhancements is pretty marginal. Would I like to have 300 hit points, sure I would take it, but I personally have not found it to be a major problem.

[maddmatt70]

[QUOTE=EinarMal;1430325]The only thing I can say is that I've tried it, as has A_Sheep and found the build to work, that is a TWF battle Bard with very good DPS and around ~220-240 hit points. QUOTE]

Well of course not you have never run the abbot raid or some of the other tough quests in game I imagine. If I ran cabal, pop, and vol all time I wouldn't have any trouble with a 175 hp melee either much less a 220 hp melee..

[EinarMal]

Well of course not you have never run the abbot raid or some of the other tough quests in game I imagine. If I ran cabal, pop, and vol all time I wouldn't have any trouble with a 175 hp melee either much less a 220 hp melee..

Of course I could tell by your tone it would not take long for the personal attacks to ensue, so good job on that. I really don't understand the point of your posting on this thread. How many hit points does a fighter need to do the "tough" quests as a DPS build with no or very little AC? Is 300 enough? With displacement and stoneskin 220 hit points is at least as good as that if not better, it is very simple math which A_Sheep already posted. Beyond that I am not sure what you need to see.

If you are talking about against casters again, a Bard's reflex save does help in that area as well making you much less likely to fail a couple of saves in a row and die.

As far as the abbot raid goes, I really don't care about that raid at all in it's current form. It sounds like pure cheese to me with some uber non-fire "inferno" that does irresistable damage. To worry about that for an entire build so you "might" have a chance to stay alive for that one quest seems silly to me.

[A_Sheep]

I would also add some less sp to the disadvantage list in case otto's dance is sweet..

Ahh, but the pure bard version would not be able to afford Extend as a feat, so I'd say Taal comes out ahead in most cases.

Yeah, I get slaughtered in the Abbot raid after the clerics die. No question about it. Haven't tried it with any other chars yet and haven't seen anyone do better yet. This (like Velah Elite @ lvl 10 cap) is a quest that is built for the evasion cleric it seems.

Einar, I don't think Matt is making personal attacks. I think he's trying to make a distinction between two different types of questing: when you're completely new to the quest and when not.

I agree with this: There is a difference and hit points matter more in the former case.

I don't know if I agree with his assessment that a Bard is not as viable (relative to a lvl 14 fighter with 400 HP?) in those situations. Bards have a lot of 'survival tools' other than HP that other classes do not have. It is hard for me to think of a situation where a DPS (non-AC) 14 Fighter has the 'advantage' survivability-wise. I guess the Abbot, but even then the bard is making reflex saves sometimes and has the option of healing himself ~3x? as fast as a fighter (who can only down potions versus a bard who can down potion, snap wand, cast cure). I dunno. I've never played a pure fighter yet, so I don't know what tools in their bag I may be missing survivability-wise. I do have a beloved barbarian and his will save is through the roof he has some good DR, but not really better than the Warchanter's.

I dunno. HP are important, but a Bard can get away with lower HP than a tank and have equivalent survivabiltiy in most cases. How much difference is okay?

[maddmatt70]

[QUOTE=A_Sheep;1431752]Ahh, but the pure bard version would not be able to afford Extend as a feat, so I'd say Taal comes out ahead in most cases.
[quote]
Your right for a pure build of your type it comes down to are you going to get extend or exot weapon prof khopesh. For my build I am debating hvy pick or extend. Now don't break out your dps calculators on me sheep, but I already have a slashing two weapon fighter so I thought a piercing spec would be fun. A heavy pick and rapier guy would be fun or just a rapier guy if I go with extend.

[quote]
Yeah, I get slaughtered in the Abbot raid after the clerics die. No question about it. Haven't tried it with any other chars yet and haven't seen anyone do better yet. This (like Velah Elite @ lvl 10 cap) is a quest that is built for the evasion cleric it seems.
[quote]

Well you see this is the rub. Hps does make a big difference in the abbot raid. If you had a party of 300 hp characters you can survive alot of grief especially if you have some solid healers. Prior to the changes very few groups beat the abbot raid legitimately (without using ranged techniques or the like) - these groups tended to be the very skilled elite players. I personnaly think more groups would have beaten the raid if hardier characters were the norm. After the changes to the abbot many groups gave up without even a serious effort because the puzzles were bugged and not all of these elite skilled players had the right builds; hence, the risk to reward ratio was so great, but if they did have the right builds a few groups might have beaten it the old way ala surviving the inferno.

I made those comments the other day while at work. I logged onto the game when I was at home and looked at the who list - players are getting the message of the abbot raid when I was looking at the wiz and sorc under level 10 I noticed barely any drow, rather a substantial number of those players were warforged and there were even some dwarfs.

[quote]
Einar, I don't think Matt is making personal attacks. I think he's trying to make a distinction between two different types of questing: when you're completely new to the quest and when not.

I agree with this: There is a difference and hit points matter more in the former case.

[quote]

Einar these are not personal attacks. With my fighter I had to change with the times because of a combination in terms of changes to the mobs post mod2 which placed a greater importance on ac, the enhancement system, the nerfs to action boost ac and a few other things for fighter and benefits of toughness I moved away from ac toward hp. I do have a nice ac, hp, and dps, but in relative terms my ac is not what it was in mod2.

As to the second point I would also add there are a handful of quests in game were it takes more then the first few times but several times to get the requisit knowledge so hp is less required. Think of some of the most difficult quests invaders elite, abbot raid, scale run, a couple of the raids maybe, beholder pre-raid which fit in this category. There is a possiblity mod6 will have more of these quests - I personaly would like to see a return of the invaders elite type quests and less of the cabal type quests....

[quote]
I don't know if I agree with his assessment that a Bard is not as viable (relative to a lvl 14 fighter with 400 HP?) in those situations. Bards have a lot of 'survival tools' other than HP that other classes do not have. It is hard for me to think of a situation where a DPS (non-AC) 14 Fighter has the 'advantage' survivability-wise. I guess the Abbot, but even then the bard is making reflex saves sometimes and has the option of healing himself ~3x? as fast as a fighter (who can only down potions versus a bard who can down potion, snap wand, cast cure). I dunno. I've never played a pure fighter yet, so I don't know what tools in their bag I may be missing survivability-wise. I do have a beloved barbarian and his will save is through the roof he has some good DR, but not really better than the Warchanter's.

[QUOTE]

I think the benefits a bard adds goes beyond their own survivability. They can buff all the other classes (saves mana for spellcasters or provides a buff that no one else can give - their songs). When you are going to fail your saves i.e. reflex and fort because an abbot's dcs are so high then having the hp safety becomes more important. A barbarian has an advantage over the standard fighter because they get more hp in these scenarios just as the fighter has an advantage over the standard battle bard. One thing about this analysis is having some skilled clerics of course metamagics has taken a little bit more of the skill out of clericing but a quality cleric can heal melee very fast...

[quote]
I dunno. HP are important, but a Bard can get away with lower HP than a tank and have equivalent survivabiltiy in most cases. How much difference is okay?
[quote]

the 20 million dollar question. I am giving a similiar build to Taal a try. The build will have a little bit over 250 hp at end game (not counting rage). I am excited about the pure bard nature of my build because I figure if I die my songs will still effect the rest of the group.

[EinarMal]

I don't think you can really put a definite number on it, certainly 150 with items is probably not going to be enough no matter how good a player you are. Personally I feel once I get above 200 that you can get the job done as a Bard given all the spells/abilities at your disposal. But it all depends on play style and how you fight. As a Bard generally you should never really have to fight large groups or normal mobs with CC casting and songs. So, really the question becomes the boss encounters and can you still DPS melee. Again I think it depends on a lot of things, who else is in your group, how good you are at managing agro etc... I mean if you are in a group and need to do a little less damage TWF is perfect for debuff or stat damaging and switching out of pure DPS mode. You have to adapt with any build to the situation. Especially if you go piercing there are some great alternatives to DPS when you need them.

One big advantage to TWF is generally you are only hitting one mob and can do really good single target DPS. I think with 250+ hit points you will find that you last as long as just about anyone minus some kind of 55+ AC evasion tank. That may exclude a couple of situations like the abbot raid where you are getting hit with huge AOE spell damage that is very difficult to save against.

I would be very interested in hearing your experience when you get to the cap with your build.

[skraus1]

I had similar concerns about survivability, which is why I made my Zhaffy Build. It survives well in every setting, abbot and reaver included, as a tank with aggro.

With that said, the only reason I didn't try a Taal type build is because I already have a similar melee ranger. And let me tell you, displacement means a WHOLE lot more survivability than AC in most settings. I can't even play my ranger any more as a result because I feel like I'm made of paper with my 50 AC.

When there are not a whole lot of AOEs being thrown about, I would expect the Taal type builds to be reasonably survivable. It is a good DPS build.

[A_Sheep]

which is why I made my Zhaffy Build.

I am really tempted by the zhaffy build. I don't have any evasion characters at the moment and I really want one.

I started up a warforged wizard, planning for 2 levels of rog and the new mod 6 feat that allows int bonus to reflex saves, but I'm not really enjoying him right now. I have lots of trouble with mana management :-\.

[Obitus]

Silly question time:

You don't miss having Concentration at all?

I'm playing around with a melee Bard build (right now I have a 'balanced' one), and I'm trying to decide on skills to rank up. Your insight is appreciated.

[CSFurious]

you went 2-handed & did not have to worry about 2-weapon dex-requirements

leave, the 2-weapon fighting to the dex-based classes, i.e., rogues & rangers

a bard with 11 starting chr makes me want to cry

i just rolled my 32-point human bard/warchanter today, starting stats:

str 14
dex 12
con 13
int 10
wis 10
cha 17

feats:

(1) luck of heroes; (bonus) sf:umd
(3) power attack
(6) toughness
(9) sf:enchantment
(12) gsf:enchantment
(fighter bonus feat 1) wf:slash
(fighter bonus feat 2) cleave or two-handed fighting

at current level cap, i am aiming for taking bard the first 10 levels, and then 2 levels of fighter

at level 12, i have not decided whether or not to take 2 bard levels, 2 additional fighter levels, or take 2 levels of barbarian

i believe that this build will be able to support the tanks with buffs, additional damage, & will still be able to successfully land enchantment-based spells as at least 2 of my attribute level-ups will be to chr

i will use a +1 tome for both str & con

[maddmatt70]

you went 2-handed & did not have to worry about 2-weapon dex-requirements

leave, the 2-weapon fighting to the dex-based classes, i.e., rogues & rangers

a bard with 11 starting chr makes me want to cry

i just rolled my 32-point human bard/warchanter today, starting stats:

str 14
dex 12
con 13
int 10
wis 10
cha 17

feats:

(1) luck of heroes; (bonus) sf:umd
(3) power attack
(6) toughness
(9) sf:enchantment
(12) gsf:enchantment
(fighter bonus feat 1) wf:slash
(fighter bonus feat 2) cleave or two-handed fighting

at current level cap, i am aiming for taking bard the first 10 levels, and then 2 levels of fighter

at level 12, i have not decided whether or not to take 2 bard levels, 2 additional fighter levels, or take 2 levels of barbarian

i believe that this build will be able to support the tanks with buffs, additional damage, & will still be able to successfully land enchantment-based spells as at least 2 of my attribute level-ups will be to chr

i will use a +1 tome for both str & con

You will be rerolling him again I would guess. The biggest advantage of two handed fighting bards vs. two weapon fighting bards is they only require 3 attributes (str, con, and char) which you have not taken advantage of with a 14 str and 13 con... Where is the dps and hp at end game?

[CSFurious]

starting stats:

str 14 +1 tome = 15 + 1 fighter str enhancement = 16 +1 attribute level-up = 17 +5 item = 22 + 2 constantly raging = 24; if i wanted dps, i would play my rogue/fighter, roll a dwarf barbarian, or just play with my capped sor

obviously, that is not elite str, but with song-buffs you will hit & be able to help finish off what the first wave does not

as to con, buff, do not get initial aggro, & do not get hit, my dex-based ranger/fighter only has 212 hitpoints before buffs & she is very survivable at end-game; a bard will be blurred, displaced & hasted, plus stoneskin &/or barkskin scrolls, with over 200 base hitpoints will be durable

i have extensive experience playing bards, i have played several drow bards with 20 chr who just did typical bard-duties, boring; i have rolled a drow bard who was weapon-finesse for melee and with rapid reload for ranged, not fun, boring

i believe this bard will be more fun &, to the contrary, this will be my best bard yet because his chr is not 11, absolutely pathetic; he will still be able to do what a bard is supposed to do, i.e., enchant the enemy

the price to pay for that high str, con or dex is low chr which to me equals a weak bard

if you want to lead the party in kills, you should not play a bard

if you want to help the other players in your party, you should play a bard

a bard should be balanced


You will be rerolling him again I would guess. The biggest advantage of two handed fighting bards vs. two weapon fighting bards is they only require 3 attributes (str, con, and char) which you have not taken advantage of with a 14 str and 13 con... Where is the dps and hp at end game?

[maddmatt70]

starting stats:

str 14 +1 tome = 15 + 1 fighter str enhancement = 16 +1 attribute level-up = 17 +5 item = 22 + 2 constantly raging = 24; if i wanted dps, i would play my rogue/fighter, roll a dwarf barbarian, or just play with my capped sor

obviously, that is not elite str, but with song-buffs you will hit & be able to help finish off what the first wave does not

as to con, buff, do not get initial aggro, & do not get hit, my dex-based ranger/fighter only has 212 hitpoints before buffs & she is very survivable at end-game; a bard will be blurred, displaced & hasted, plus stoneskin &/or barkskin scrolls, with over 200 base hitpoints will be durable

i have extensive experience playing bards, i have played several drow bards with 20 chr who just did typical bard-duties, boring; i have rolled a drow bard who was weapon-finesse for melee and with rapid reload for ranged, not fun, boring

i believe this bard will be more fun &, to the contrary, this will be my best bard yet because his chr is not 11, absolutely pathetic; he will still be able to do what a bard is supposed to do, i.e., enchant the enemy

the price to pay for that high str, con or dex is low chr which to me equals a weak bard

if you want to lead the party in kills, you should not play a bard

if you want to help the other players in your party, you should play a bard

a bard should be balanced

You don't have max songs for buffing, max dps for attacking in regards to your str and feat selection, and you are specced for cc, but your spell penetration is abysmal. Spell penetration is not important right now you say, but when mod6 with demons and devils comes out everything will have sr and decent will saves - good luck with that. The problem with your build is respeccing is tight. There are some other quality balanced bard builds, but what sets them apart from yours is their capacity to respecc to the next mod's changes while your stuck with building another character probably..

One more key point is you will not get the high level cc spells such as the new sixth level spell ottos dance which will have no save and be the best bard cc in the game.

Surviveability is always a question if you are going to do any melee especially where the combination of monster aoe spells and monster melee comes into play...

[Schmackdown]

You will be rerolling him again I would guess.
QFT.

[A_Sheep]

Silly question time:

You don't miss having Concentration at all?

I'm playing around with a melee Bard build (right now I have a 'balanced' one), and I'm trying to decide on skills to rank up. Your insight is appreciated.

I would like to have more skill points. Concentration is indeed a useful skill, however, I originally reasoned that other skills would be a better use of my skill points. If I did things over again, I think I would drop diplomacy entirely from the equation and pick up listen. Next priority would be concentration. Tumble is another that is very much a playstyle choice. I like the backflips/leaps for combat manuvering.

If I casted more in combat, then concentration would be a bigger deal, however I find that I rarely cast during combat and even if I do, I can start running around while casting and often get the spell off. Having the concentration skill doesn't guarantee success either, you still have to pass a DC However much damage you took concentration check, which is often somewhat impossible, but I have concentration maxed on my cleric and enjoy it.

[A_Sheep]

you went 2-handed & did not have to worry about 2-weapon dex-requirements


Not to be rude or anything, but...

http://i215.photobucket.com/albums/cc219/UndistinguishedDM/CSFurious_Comparison.jpg

I don't really think it's fair to compare your build to Taalisyn in that manner. Taalisyn does ~ twice the DPS that your build does. This means that you are not on the same playing field DPS-wise. I am not meaning to criticize your build at all. It is just not the same kind of build. (THF battlebards seem to usually be in the 90 DPS area, Icy is above 100 DPS (I can't remember exactly :(), and Taalisyn @ the 124 DPS @ AC 1). In reading my OP again, I realize that I didn't talk about the fundamental choices behind the Taalisyn build, his spell choices, or the way he is played. All of this was extensively written about before the forum cataclysm. I will hopefully find some time to add information such as that to the OP.

Comparison Disclaimer:
In the comparison, I included the 14 Dwarf Barbarian that I do play merely for reference. I gave everyone +5 Holy XXX and +6 stat gear. No seeker items were added in, but Taal is now sporting some shiny Mentau's goggles (+4 seeker). If seeker is added to all parties, Taalisyn benefits the most because he gets it on both hands and has a more potent critical range/bonus combination. I assumed that CSFurious would go 12 bard/2 Fighter. The 10/2/2barbarian version would be less DPS while unraged and more DPS while raged (due to lacking Inspired Damage III enhancement). Buffs included: Personal bard buffs, (Bellfore Barbarian didn't get any, but he's raging), focusing chant, haste (to-hit component, not speed increases), Greater Heroism for the Barbarian. It's not a rigorous comparison, but I think it gives an idea. In practice, Taalisyn now has a Divine power 5/day clicky, which boosts his to-hit +3 for a few select fights, but that is equally availible to the CSFurious Bard and only really merits mention due to the comparison versus the Barbarian. This calculation assumes standing still melee DPS.

[geezee]

Graphs ftw! End of story.

[CSFurious]

appreciated some criticism & upped str to 15 & con to 14 at start

i never said that this build was dps, i said it was a battle-support bard who sometimes could help out with fighting more than the typical cookie-cutter squishy drow bards that have taken over the servers in the past

this build can still get a chr of of approx. 30 (probably need +2 tome) & with sf:enchantment & gsf:enchantment, spell penetration enhancements & wearing/wielding enchantment/spell penetration items, i fail to understand how most of my enchantment-based spells will not land

the original build in this thread, is not going to hit any enchantment-based spells in mod 6; as i originally stated, that is not a bard that i would want to play

i also fail to understand how the starting stats are not balanced:

str 15
dex 12
int 10
con 14
wis 10
chr 16

how can you get more balanced? it is actually the complete opposite of the min-max builds that have taken over this game

it is a work in progress so i may not multi-class as much as originally posted

however, i do not want to play a warchanter that does not have some levels of fighter, i want the bonus feats, additional hitpoints & enhancements

as to missing some bard spells, i will live, i will not cry

as to re-rolling, isn't that why we are all still playing this game?:eek::rolleyes::)

peace


You don't have max songs for buffing, max dps for attacking in regards to your str and feat selection, and you are specced for cc, but your spell penetration is abysmal. Spell penetration is not important right now you say, but when mod6 with demons and devils comes out everything will have sr and decent will saves - good luck with that. The problem with your build is respeccing is tight. There are some other quality balanced bard builds, but what sets them apart from yours is their capacity to respecc to the next mod's changes while your stuck with building another character probably..

One more key point is you will not get the high level cc spells such as the new sixth level spell ottos dance which will have no save and be the best bard cc in the game.

Surviveability is always a question if you are going to do any melee especially where the combination of monster aoe spells and monster melee comes into play...

[BUpcott]

I have very few bound items on him and only +1 tomes and my favor tome.

Just curious what kind of gear set up you have? Also, in regards to the low Wisdom score, any thought to taking Force of Personality at level 15.

[CSFurious]

i think that the graph shows that at endgame, you want to also have a high chr for spell-casting as a bard because you do not want to be a one-trick pony

additionally, i do not need a graph to know that a 12bard/2fighter or 14 bard with maxed song-buffs will enable capped barbarians, rogues & rangers to be elite dps machines

A_Sheep, you are clearly a smart individual & the graph demonstrates that your build is solid & can cause a ton of damage, but i do not believe that your bard can be an effective spell-caster at end-game which is a weakness, but, as you are aware, every build is give & take

for me personally, it makes more sense to play a ranger or rogue if you want to be a 2-weapon dps fighter & if you want to play a bard, to be a support bard that makes the other members of your party simply more effective at dps & part of that is using enchantment to control the enemy

peace, & maybe when my bard gets to the higher levels, maybe we can group together & destroy some of the gh


Not to be rude or anything, but...

http://i215.photobucket.com/albums/cc219/UndistinguishedDM/CSFurious_Comparison.jpg

I don't really think it's fair to compare your build to Taalisyn in that manner. Taalisyn does ~ twice the DPS that your build does. This means that you are not on the same playing field DPS-wise. I am not meaning to criticize your build at all. It is just not the same kind of build. (THF battlebards seem to usually be in the 90 DPS area, Icy is above 100 DPS (I can't remember exactly :(), and Taalisyn @ the 124 DPS @ AC 1). In reading my OP again, I realize that I didn't talk about the fundamental choices behind the Taalisyn build, his spell choices, or the way he is played. All of this was extensively written about before the forum cataclysm. I will hopefully find some time to add information such as that to the OP.

Comparison Disclaimer:
In the comparison, I included the 14 Dwarf Barbarian that I do play merely for reference. I gave everyone +5 Holy XXX and +6 stat gear. No seeker items were added in, but Taal is now sporting some shiny Mentau's goggles (+4 seeker). If seeker is added to all parties, Taalisyn benefits the most because he gets it on both hands and has a more potent critical range/bonus combination. I assumed that CSFurious would go 12 bard/2 Fighter. The 10/2/2barbarian version would be less DPS while unraged and more DPS while raged (due to lacking Inspired Damage III enhancement). Buffs included: Personal bard buffs, (Bellfore Barbarian didn't get any, but he's raging), focusing chant, haste (to-hit component, not speed increases), Greater Heroism for the Barbarian. It's not a rigorous comparison, but I think it gives an idea. In practice, Taalisyn now has a Divine power 5/day clicky, which boosts his to-hit +3 for a few select fights, but that is equally availible to the CSFurious Bard and only really merits mention due to the comparison versus the Barbarian. This calculation assumes standing still melee DPS.

[Obitus]

I would like to have more skill points. Concentration is indeed a useful skill, however, I originally reasoned that other skills would be a better use of my skill points. If I did things over again, I think I would drop diplomacy entirely from the equation and pick up listen. Next priority would be concentration. Tumble is another that is very much a playstyle choice. I like the backflips/leaps for combat manuvering.

If I casted more in combat, then concentration would be a bigger deal, however I find that I rarely cast during combat and even if I do, I can start running around while casting and often get the spell off. Having the concentration skill doesn't guarantee success either, you still have to pass a DC However much damage you took concentration check, which is often somewhat impossible, but I have concentration maxed on my cleric and enjoy it.

Thanks for the response. Most of my experience with the game goes back to a time when Concentration seemed not to matter; it could be my faulty memory, but I'm not even sure Concentration checks were even rolled back when the level cap was 10.

You make a very good point about the DC of Concentration checks. If DDO follows the SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/concentration.htm) (DC = 10 + damage dealt), then I can imagine there are a lot of times that the check is basically impossible to pass. On the other hand, there seems to be very little middle ground in DDO; a Stoneskinned (or stoneskin-chanted) and Displaced Bard will likely often take damage in the 5-15 range, which is passable even without ranks in the skill. Then there are occasionally really heavy hits that probably no one can pass.

Having played a number of tank types in the past, I agree about Tumble. I'd also ideally like to fit in Balance and Jump, which would leave just enough skill points to max (or near max) Perform and UMD. I have high Diplo on my balanced Bard, and it's great to have, but I'd feel guilty using it on a more sturdy character -- which at least I hope this new build will be. :)

[CSFurious]

please do a graph where your barbarian's dps is measured while under the influence of the bard song-buffs

thanks


Graphs ftw! End of story.

[A_Sheep]

Just curious what kind of gear set up you have? Also, in regards to the low Wisdom score, any thought to taking Force of Personality at level 15.

Current Item set-up (will add to OP).

Head: Minos Legens (Heavy Fort + Toughness)
Neck: Open (Wear Silver Flame Amulet most of the time, but ultimate item would be DQ torque)
Ring: +5 Constitution of Light Fort (want to upgrade to +6)
Ring: Elemental Resistance
Bracers: +6 Str Bracers RR:Halfling
Gloves: Rabbit Gloves
Trinket: Kardin's Eye
Cloak: +6 Cha Cloak (swap for Elemental Resistance cloak after I'm down a few SP)
Boots: +3 Dex Boots of Tumble +10 RR:Warforged/Kundarak Delver's Boots/Feather Fall Boots
Armor: Fearsome Robe of Improved Fire Resistance (also a few Greater Resist Robes for situational use)
Goggles: Mentau's Goggles (+4 Seeker) (Also 5/day Divine Power goggles, Visor of Flesh Render Guard goggles x3)

I have quite a few slots that are mostly open. There are many other good configurations and probably a few better configurations. I very much like that I almost always have 30 resistance to electricity (cloak) and cold (ring) and 20 resistance to fire (fearsome robe).

As for Force of Personality: I don't think it's really worth it for Taalisyn. He would be moving from an 8 wisdom (-1 will save) to a 14 Charisma (+2 will save). I do not usually wear my charisma cloak (only for the Spell Points). I guess it is right up there with my other possible options.

There's not really a clear choice, imo:
Toughness (+21 HP with 1 AP spent)
Power Critical (+4 to confirm? Also to damage on crits?)
Skill Focus: UMD

All of these would give Taalisyn a little bit of something, but nothing amazing. Maybe Force of Personality and then I won't take off my cha cloak as often? *shrug*

[A_Sheep]

please do a graph where your barbarian's dps is measured while under the influence of the bard song-buffs

thanks

Sure.

http://i215.photobucket.com/albums/cc219/UndistinguishedDM/CSFurious_Comparison_2.jpg

Same disclaimer as last time, but added the divine power to the bards. A pure Bard Warchanter at the current cap could add another +2 to hit and +1 damage to Bellfore.

[A_Sheep]

Graphs ftw! End of story.

Graph is such a derogatory term, I prefer to call them Mathbarian Rages!

[Mad_Bombardier]

Graph is such a derogatory term, I prefer to call them Mathbarian Rages!Simply awesome! :D

[BUpcott]

Bracers: +6 Str Bracers RR:Halfling
Armor: Fearsome Robe of Improved Fire Resistance (also a few Greater Resist Robes for situational use)


Just an idea you should look for a fearsome of Invulnerability can't hurt to have a standing 5/magic

Also AC is pretty low eh? I understand it is made up by stoneskin, blur, displacement, etc etc but again out of curiousity what are you sitting at normally.

Also your spell selection?

If you haven't figured out I am working up a similar idea. Using yours as a base.

[A_Sheep]

Just an idea you should look for a fearsome of Invulnerability can't hurt to have a standing 5/magic


Any magic weapon bypasses the invulnerability DR. Most enemy monsters are using magic weapons at this point. In addition, I often (if I'm not lazy) have the Warchanter DR song up, so that 5/- is better than the 5/magic anyways. So many things do fire damage that having near constant 20 resistance to fire is nice (while also keeping fearsome, which is also nice).



Also AC is pretty low eh? I understand it is made up by stoneskin, blur, displacement, etc etc but again out of curiousity what are you sitting at normally.


Yeah, my AC is out of the range of usefulness. With the set-up described here, I have a 16 AC (+5 Dex, +1 Haste). With bunches of AC equipment on, it is possible to achieve a little bit of AC (not much, though), but I think you are actually more survivable if you spend your slots warding off non-melee forms of damage instead:

10 Base
+10 Kundarak Delver's Suit (1 slot)
+6 Dex Bonus (1 slot, although I'm already using a dex/tumble item)
+5 Protection (1 Slot)
+3 Natural Armor (Potion)
+4/7 Shield Spell/+5 Heavy Mith Shield
+1 Haste
+2 Chaosgarde (1 Slot)
==
41/44 - It's not really going to stop anything worth stopping. It can get higher than this with chattering ring and other stuff, but I really think forgetting AC entirely is a better way to go.



Also your spell selection?


Let's see... (spells in paranthesis are really personal choice)
Level 1: Focusing chant, (Remove Fear, Expeditious Retreat, Cure Light Wounds)
Level 2: Blur, Rage, (Cat's Grace, Heroism)
Level 3: Displacement, Haste, Good Hope, Cures Serious Wounds
Level 4: Freedom of Movement, (Dimension Door, Otto's Dancing Sphere, hehehehehe it does work sometimes, even with a 14 charisma!, but mostly it's for dance parties while someone is AFK. Cure critical is probably a better choice)

I haven't looked at my spell selection too much, so maybe there are some better choices for the guys in paranthesis...

[A_Sheep]

For level 15 feat, I'm considering either Oversized TWF (which translates basically to +2 to-hit while dual-wielding khopeshes) or Toughness (which translates to 18 HP + 5 for 1 AP of investment). Neither are terribly attractive, compared to the feats chosen up to that point.

I am still itching to see what the next attack in the chain brings and whether Superior TWF is worth getting and what its requirements are.

[BUpcott]

For level 15 feat, I'm considering either Oversized TWF (which translates basically to +2 to-hit while dual-wielding khopeshes) or Toughness (which translates to 18 HP + 5 for 1 AP of investment). Neither are terribly attractive, compared to the feats chosen up to that point.

I am still itching to see what the next attack in the chain brings and whether Superior TWF is worth getting and what its requirements are.

Off top of my head IIRC it's 19 DEX and 15 BAB for STWF.
I was thinking of the same, BTW I made a similar build (as I mentioned I would) but she is halfling. Just hit level 12 yesterday. I am leaning more to Toughness since with songs and such I am in mid to high 20's for my to hit bonus as is and it's only going to go up.

[Borror0]

Off top of my head IIRC it's 19 DEX and 15 BAB for STWF.

It is.

I also made a similar build, but Dwarf. I've decided that I'll take my second fighter level at 20, so I could take STWF. I assumed that, by then, a +3 Dex tome won't be that rare.

[A_Sheep]

What about stunning blow for the 15th level feat? Hrm...

[BUpcott]

What about stunning blow for the 15th level feat? Hrm...

That along with 1 AP into Fighter Strat (Stunning Blow) could be a nice chioce as well.

[Schmackdown]

What about stunning blow for the 15th level feat? Hrm...
I've posted this before, but gTWF/Stunning Blow/Quick Draw/Extend/Toughness/IC: Pierce makes a nice dwarf Virtuoso 10/4 Tactical build(Unified Theory). I don't think much of the Stunner without Quick Draw, though; to connect on elite you're going to need a good weighted weapon and some knowledge of when to swing it in your attack chain. Weighted weapons aren't usually daily drivers, and rapid/frequent weapon swapping without Quick Draw is just working against yourself.

If you have the shards(4), I'd try swapping out the Warchanter prereqs for SB/QD just to see how you like it. You can always go back.

[skraus1]

I've posted this before, but gTWF/Stunning Blow/Quick Draw/Extend/Toughness/IC: Pierce makes a nice dwarf Virtuoso 10/4 Tactical build(Unified Theory). I don't think much of the Stunner without Quick Draw, though; to connect on elite you're going to need a good weighted weapon and some knowledge of when to swing it in your attack chain. Weighted weapons aren't usually daily drivers, and rapid/frequent weapon swapping without Quick Draw is just working against yourself.

If you have the shards(4), I'd try swapping out the Warchanter prereqs for SB/QD just to see how you like it. You can always go back.

Personally I think stunning blow would fit in better in two-handed fighter/bard warchanter builds. They have more free feats. Lowering yours and the group's + to hit and damage by not taking warchanter seems counter productive. A better stunning blow is not worth that. You'd literally be better using the stunning weapon all the time and keeping as a warchanter than dropping warchanter.

[Schmackdown]

Edit: apologies.

[A_Sheep]

If you have the shards(4), I'd try swapping out the Warchanter prereqs for SB/QD just to see how you like it. You can always go back.

That's an idea.

If I fit in quickdraw, though, I wouldn't give up warchanter for it, that would be a little wasteful I think. I would drop extend instead.

[A_Sheep]

Yeah, tactics are great with TWF. The mob basically has to make two saves.

[Schmackdown]

I would drop extend instead.
I'm warming up to that idea as well, you should post back w/your experiences with it.

[EinarMal]

I'm warming up to that idea as well, you should post back w/your experiences with it.

I dropped extend recently on my TWF spellsinger battle Bard. I swapped it out for heighten in preperation for the next Mod and level 6 spells (wanted +3 DC to Fear etc...). I always forgot to turn off extend anyway when I used dancing sphere/fear etc.... so ended up wasting as many spell points as I saved.

The bottom line is you don't need extend, unless you don't have the spell points to cover buffs without it. I have a lot of spell points ~750 at level 11 compared to this build, but I have no problem with keeping up haste/displacement/rage and also casting some healing and other spells.

The one thing it does is up even more the amount of things to keep going at all times! It really makes it more hectic to have to re-cast them much more often. That is probably the biggest thing to get used to and manage even more than the small spell point savings (if you never extend a spell you don't want to). I've gotten used to the increased buff casting pace though and I actually am liking it better. I think you might use fewer spell points as you don't waste as much "down time" displaced which negates a lot of the savings that extend would give you.

[Schmackdown]

The one thing it does is up even more the amount of things to keep going at all times! It really makes it more hectic to have to re-cast them much more often... I've gotten used to the increased buff casting pace though and I actually am liking it better. I think you might use fewer spell points as you don't waste as much "down time" displaced which negates a lot of the savings that extend would give you.
Solid, thanks. I'll probably be OK with it once I get accustomed to a non-extended rebuff pace rather than an extended one. My main issue will probably be the whining from party members when they're not hasted *between* battles. Dudes get spoiled.

I would also think that dropping Extend would make Concentration more important at times.

[redoubt]

Sheep & others with similar builds:

I've gotten to level 5 (4bard 1fighter) so far. I like the build a lot, but I find I'm out of spell points a lot.

Common buffs:
song
extended blur (usually just on me)
extended rage (same)
extended chant

I only heal from spell points if I'm in trouble because I want to save them for buffs.

Am I buffing too much? Will it become more manageable later?

[A_Sheep]

Sheep & others with similar builds:

I've gotten to level 5 (4bard 1fighter) so far. I like the build a lot, but I find I'm out of spell points a lot.

Common buffs:
song
extended blur (usually just on me)
extended rage (same)
extended chant

I only heal from spell points if I'm in trouble because I want to save them for buffs.

Am I buffing too much? Will it become more manageable later?

Buffing gets easier at hte higher levels because your SP goes up, durations go up, and the time between shrines doesn't really change much.

Personally, I wasn't casting rage or focusing chant at your level. I was pure bard going sword and board with a khopesh until level 11.

I would not often cast rage or focusing chant at that level. Rage lowers AC and at low levels, you can have very good AC with a decent dex and twinked gear.

It will get worse before it gets better, though, because once you get haste and displacement, you'll have additional reasons to spend your spell points. Not really a 'fix' for it as you have to sacrifice something to get high DPS, but it will get better at higher levels.

[Obitus]

I rarely, if ever, cast Focusing Chant unless I'm about to make a really difficult UMD check (hey, every little bit helps).

Your attack bonus should be good enough without it in the majority of situations. Later on, you can use Divine Power clickies to help with high-AC opponents.

The low-mid levels can be a little trying, SP-wise. If I were you, I'd strongly consider taking Mental Toughness and Spellsinger just to make the trek from 7 to 11-12ish easier. That is, if you don't mind swapping feats. :)

[redoubt]

I dropped power attack for Mental Toughness. I was never using it because I didn't want the drop in "to-hit".

I generally need all the "to-hit" bonus I can get. I tend to run a lot of on-level elite as I level up, so the enemy AC is pretty high. (For example running a level 2 quest on elite, thus level 4 as a level 4.)

I'm also already dual-wielding most of the time. I'm self buffing to +13 in each hand using +1 weapons at level 5.

[Obitus]

I dropped power attack for Mental Toughness. I was never using it because I didn't want the drop in "to-hit".

I generally need all the "to-hit" bonus I can get. I tend to run a lot of on-level elite as I level up, so the enemy AC is pretty high. (For example running a level 2 quest on elite, thus level 4 as a level 4.)

I'm also already dual-wielding most of the time. I'm self buffing to +13 in each hand using +1 weapons at level 5.

Yeah, Power Attack is better later on; I've never found that my characters can easily afford the ToHit penalty before about level 8 or 9.

+13 is pretty good for that level, but I personally choose (most of the time, anyway) +3 vanilla weapons over +1 elemental ones at that point. Ideally, you'll have an assortment of both to be used situationally.

It's not that the bonus from Focusing Chant is bad; it's just that it's a pain in the rear to keep the buff maintained, and the SP cost, while certainly not huge, does add up if you're playing a low-CHA, melee-focused Bard in the lower levels. Any way you slice it though, this isn't an early-blooming build. Sure, you can rack up some impressive kill counts even early on, but rationing SP and even songs can be a pita, and your defenses aren't that great unless you take Sheep's approach -- which was to go for AC for most of the ride up.

[A_Sheep]

Any way you slice it though, this isn't an early-blooming build. Sure, you can rack up some impressive kill counts even early on, but rationing SP and even songs can be a pita, and your defenses aren't that great unless you take Sheep's approach -- which was to go for AC for most of the ride up.

Definitely true. With twinked funds/equipment, this build can be an AC tank with modest DPS and a healer (an endless bag of cure serious wands makes a pretty decent healer) up until level 9 or 10, at which point it was difficult to fill a healer role and by the time I got into the desert/gianthold, my AC was getting shreded. AC tank at lower levels has always been my playstyle (my cleric, barbarian, archer all played as AC tanks at low levels). Once AC matters less and other abilities become more powerful, the robes come on and the DPS sticks come out.

I didn't have the Bard specialty option until Taalisyn was already level 9 or 10. I knew about the upcoming enhancement, so I had set up my feats to be ready for it.

[CSFurious]

"Bards are like people in the witness protection program; you have no idea what they are capable of." - Credit to Blind Skwerl

IMO

"Bards are like people in the witness protection program; the good ones are impossible to find." - Credit to CSFurious

[A_Sheep]

"Bards are like people in the witness protection program; you have no idea what they are capable of." - Credit to Blind Skwerl

IMO

"Bards are like people in the witness protection program; the good ones are impossible to find." - Credit to CSFurious

This is very true as well. Although I'd say about 1/2 of the bards I group with at cap are good.

[Neijin]

deleted

[Borror0]

Question.. what's in your belt slot?:p

[BUpcott]

Question.. what's in your belt slot?:p

I have a grtr false life on my build (based off this one). Looking forward to getting titan belt, great double tasker.

[Borror0]

I have a grtr false life on my build (based off this one). Looking forward to getting titan belt, great double tasker.

Yeah, that is what I'm looking to do on mine too. Then, I'd get him the DQ bracers.

[Shade]

Taalisyn is a high DPS melee bard who does not have significant offensive casting abilities. His DPS is equivalent to a Raging Barbarian. (although with his buffs, a Raging barbarian is indeed better)

lolol..

comon get real. Bards are support classes, you can not even begin to match a barbarians dps with this guy. Not even doing a skewed poor comparison between you self buffed and the barbarian without bard buffs.

You get a nice 32 strength.. Thats great. My barbarian has 52.
Your power attack adds +5 dmg.. Wow. Barbarians add +8.
You crit on a 17 with your khopesh.. Barbarian with the same weapons crit on a 15.
Your bab for this build is 11 - barbarian is 14.. You attack slower and miss more often, a huge drop in dps.
You don't get Superior TWF in mod6 like real combat classes.

Not even in the same ballpark as a real barbarians dps.

[Borror0]

You get a nice 32 strength.. Thats great. My barbarian has 52.

Sorry, but he gets 42 with the same gear you are using.


Your bab for this build is 11 - barbarian is 14.. You attack slower and miss more often, a huge drop in dps.

You don't miss that often, heck, my intimitank barely misses so I'm sure this guy's +8 to-hit more than covers that 3 point difference (11 versus 14). Besides, 15 BAB will slow you down.:D


You don't get Superior TWF in mod6 like real combat classes.

He was talking for module 4-5, which are the modules we are still in as far as I know...

Yes, bard are a little lower, but they buff the rest of the party. In fact, you can see it in this graph (http://img.enterwiki.net/images/Battlebard.jpg). Yes, your barbarian does more damage, but the bards buff everyone else around him, I think that it is part of its DPS and not yours. :)

[maddmatt70]

lolol..

comon get real. Bards are support classes, you can not even begin to match a barbarians dps with this guy. Not even doing a skewed poor comparison between you self buffed and the barbarian without bard buffs.

You get a nice 32 strength.. Thats great. My barbarian has 52.
Your power attack adds +5 dmg.. Wow. Barbarians add +8.
You crit on a 17 with your khopesh.. Barbarian with the same weapons crit on a 15.
Your bab for this build is 11 - barbarian is 14.. You attack slower and miss more often, a huge drop in dps.
You don't get Superior TWF in mod6 like real combat classes.

Not even in the same ballpark as a real barbarians dps.

If I didn't buff you just myself and ran around the quest with you - I wonder how far apart we would be in terms of dps - that is if I played rabiez that is. A_Sheep has a similiar build to rabiez, but he does more dps because of the 2 fighter levels which give him gtwf and the khopesh prof (in the next mod we will be closer in terms of dps because rabiez will have gtwf). I can't speak for A_Sheep, but my goal with rabiez is to increase the overall party dps and still provide very high personal dps. I have calculated that per hit this build does more dps then any other build other then maybe a barbarian assuming that the other melee don't have bards running around with them. Finally, I sincerely doubt that your running all the time with a 52 strength rather your average strength in a quest is lower probably in the mid to high 40s..

[Ironwind]

With this incredibly high dps and total lack of AC, how does Taal avoid aggro and swift, recurrent and dps-halting death?

[Obitus]

lolol..

comon get real. Bards are support classes, you can not even begin to match a barbarians dps with this guy. Not even doing a skewed poor comparison between you self buffed and the barbarian without bard buffs.

The comparison isn't skewed if you look at it from the perspective that each character brings different benefits to your party. A Barbarian doesn't come with Bard buffs, after all, and if your party doesn't already have a Bard, then Taalisyn (or other similarly melee-focused Bards) will indeed bring DPS that is in the same "ballpark" (your word) with a Barbarian -- even if we disregard the effect of the buffs on the rest of the party.

A barbarian will do more damage, but the difference isn't night and day unless the Barbarian already has the Bard's buffs. Whether you think it's silly or not, some people might prefer to have Taal for DPS in their sixth party spot if they don't already have a Bard. You're sacrificing a relatively minor amount of DPS for the ability to Fascinate, buff, and do miscellaneous things like, um, you know, use Heal and Raise Dead scrolls.

That's not to say that the Barb doesn't have perks, too. The Barbarian has innate DR, many more hit points (which may or may not be a big deal to the party in question), speed, and the ability to be buffed up even further if you do already have another Bard in the party. If you could somehow orchestrate a test run with a battle Bard and a Barb -- each with equivalent gear (and presumably equal skill) and with the Barb unaffected by the Bard's buffs -- I imagine that the Barb would win the kill count by quite a bit, but only because the Barb moves faster (runspeed bonuses coupled with no need to stop and rebuff himself).


You get a nice 32 strength.. Thats great. My barbarian has 52.

I'm too lazy to double check your Barbarian's gear (if indeed it's posted), but I'm confident enough in Borror to trust his assertion that you're counting unequal gear here. I'm sure we're all impressed by your uberness, Shade. If you have the best of everything, then that's great, but you can't put down a build on the basis that you happen to have better gear.


Your power attack adds +5 dmg.. Wow. Barbarians add +8.

His songs add +7. You have a +5 STR modifier advantage. So ...

5 (power attack) + 7 (songs) = 12
8 (barbarian PA) + 5 (str advantage) = 13


You crit on a 17 with your khopesh.. Barbarian with the same weapons crit on a 15.

Granted, but that's the only major difference between the two builds when taken in isolation.


Your bab for this build is 11 - barbarian is 14.. You attack slower and miss more often, a huge drop in dps.

You're taking an additional -3 to attack from Barbarian's Power Attack. You can't have it both ways.

His ToHit would be something like:

+10 BAB
+16 STR (42 STR, as per Borror)
+8 song
+5 weapon
+1 Weapon Focus
-2 TWF
-5 Power Attack
----------------
+33 total

A TWF Barb's would be:

+14 BAB
+21 STR (52 STR, as per you)
+5 Weapon
+1 Weapon Focus (I'm giving you every benefit here)
-8 Power Attack
-2 TWF
----------------
+31 total, or +33 if you go with a two-handed weapon.

Not seeing a huge disadvantage there; even if we go with your STR number for the Bard, it isn't as if missing is a huge concern for either build, and the speed difference between +10 and +14 BAB isn't anything to get excited about, especially given that +15 will likely slow you down again -- if not by a lot then by a little.

(And of course, Divine Power clickies are plentiful if ToHit ever does become a huge concern on a situational basis.)


You don't get Superior TWF in mod6 like real combat classes.

Irrelevant to the original claim, but even so, if the +15 BAB attack progression remains as it is, then Superior TWF might not be that big a deal with respect to toe-to-toe DPS. Hell, having access to the feat may prove more detrimental than the feat is beneficial. ;)


Not even in the same ballpark as a real barbarians dps.

You haven't demonstrated that.

[Shade]

Irrelevant to the original claim, but even so, if the +15 BAB attack progression remains as it is, then Superior TWF might not be that big a deal with respect to toe-to-toe DPS. Hell, having access to the feat may prove more detrimental than the feat is beneficial. ;)


You gota be the most evil person in DDO to put a smiley face next to that. To even think turbine will release a module where they absolutely nerf pure combat classes like that is just awful.

And I don't intend or care to demonstate anything.

To try to include things into your build that you straight didn't include into your build for the sake of suposedly winning an argument has to be one of the dumbest things ive ever read. Either edit your build to include that - or you don't use it, simple as that.

The fact is, you didn't include it because you wouldn't use it, so don't make up junk saying that you would. No decent bard in there right mind would use madstone rage or blood rage at any comparable % of time to a barbarian - thereby disabling a major class feature - spell casting (and a number of other things by using up those slots).. Sure you'd use it here and there, but its not something you can honestly include into a build and say its viable - and you didn't.

And yea regardless, even if you did something dumb like wear those items on a bard - you still wouldn't come close. Even if you somehow delt more damage per swing.

BAB is more then to hit - it effects your attack speed.
Slower attack speed and no critical rage makes a huge difference.

[Beherit_Baphomar]

Granted, but that's the only major difference between the two builds when taken in isolation.


Ya cant really say "but thats the only major difference", now can ya? A barbarians crit range is a HUGE, massive, huge DPS difference. Its the difference between night and day.

[Obitus]

You gota be the most evil person in DDO to put a smiley face next to that. To even think turbine will release a module where they absolutely nerf pure combat classes like that is just awful.

They've already nerfed melee attack speed rather heavily once -- and even now, BAB +10 is a smidgeon (to my eye) slower than BAB +9.

Do I think it likely that Module 6 will go through as-is? Probably not, but I'm not going to assume that Turbine will make everything hunky-dory either. The attack-progression system that Turbine started with seems to be putting them into a bit of a bind; short of making five or even six-attack rounds the same length as the one-attack rounds we all get at BAB +0, there ain't a whole lot they can do to make ever-increasing animation sequences unreservedly a good thing.

That's why we have the increasing attack bonuses in the first place.

And by the way, I meant that comment facetiously. It was a winking smiley face.


To try to include things into your build that you straight didn't include into your build for the sake of suposedly winning an argument has to be one of the dumbest things ive ever read. Either edit your build to include that - or you don't use it, simple as that.

I'm not the OP, first of all.

The fact remains that equipment disparities are not a solid basis on which to criticize builds. The greatest build in existence, without good gear, will tend to compare poorly with a mediocre build with great gear. Whether a Bard would wear the items or not is another question, but if we're comparing peak performance, then there you go.

I'm sure your Barb doesn't have the maximum possible buffs from Madstone Rage and Blood Rage 24/7 either. I'm equally sure that your Barbarian isn't representative; I didn't see anyone say that Taal would put out comparable DPS to Shade's Barbarian. I saw Sheep say that Taal can put out comparable DPS to a generic raging Barbarian, assuming that Barbarian didn't have Bard buffs on him. That seems to me a very reasonable and measured statement, supported by irrefutable facts.


The fact is, you didn't include it because you wouldn't use it, so don't make up junk saying that you would. No decent bard in there right mind would use madstone rage or blood rage at any comparable &#37; of time to a barbarian - thereby disabling a major class feature - spell casting (and a number of other things by using up those slots).. Sure you'd use it here and there, but its not something you can honestly include into a build and say its viable - and you didn't.

I could see using those things quite a bit if I'm playing a lower-CHA Bard in a party where I feel I can rely on other people for buffs, like Haste. Would I use those things less often than a Barb? Sure, but I think ultimately you're mistaking the option to cast and use scrolls and all of that other good stuff for a disadvantage.


And yea regardless, even if you did something dumb like wear those items on a bard - you still wouldn't come close. Even if you somehow delt more damage per swing.

"Close" is relative. I tend to think that a 10-20% difference in DPS with the best melee DPS class in the game is "close" enough from a practical perspective -- especially given that not all mobs are crit-susceptible. You seem to think that any advantage for the Barbarian is an excuse to snicker. *shrug*

Crit range enhancements are the primary disparity, and purely in terms of damage over time (DPS), those crit range enhancements are not such a spectacularly huge factor as some might think.

If we assume that the Barb hits on a roll of 2 or higher, and that the Barb is using Khopeshes and has Improved Critical, then the Barbarian critical enhancement is adding approximately 8% to his total DPS against crittable creatures. The Barb will more than likely have an advantage with respect to damage per hit, too, of course, but the critical range enhancements aren't all that by themselves.


BAB is more then to hit - it effects your attack speed.

Very very very very slightly, and as we've seen, having a higher BAB can, in fact, lower your overall toe-to-toe attack speed. As for the Module 6 issue, we'll just have to see. Either way, I've got like 60 charges of Divine Power banked. Seriously, those items are not at all hard to come by.

[Obitus]

Ya cant really say "but thats the only major difference", now can ya? A barbarians crit range is a HUGE, massive, huge DPS difference. Its the difference between night and day.

If by huge, you mean an 8-9% increase to total DPS against crit-susceptible creatures, then sure.

Now that's using Khopeshes, admittedly. The truth is that the Barb crit enhancements actually provide more benefit to characters using weapons with low initial threat. To put it another way, going from a 20% crit rate to a 30% crit rate (as with a Khopesh) is less an improvement than is going from a 10% crit rate to a 20% crit rate (as with most axes). And then you have variables like the opponent's AC, concealment, DR, crit-immunity -- all of which can make the crit enhancements more or less useful relative to what you'd have going on otherwise.

I think a lot of people look at the total crit range a capped Barb can reach and forget that you get a large proportion (if not most, as in the case of Khopeshes) of that crit range from the weapon itself, and from a feat that is available to everyone (Improved Critical). What really makes the crit enhancements so powerful is that Barbarians tend to have a fairly large damage advantage to begin with, which is only multiplied by the additional threat range. In the case of Taal versus Joe Barb, I don't see that huge an initial damage disparity. Sure, it's there, but the question is at what point is a melee DPSer's damage impressive enough to get the job done -- particularly in what's fast becoming a caster-centric game? At what point and under what circumstances are the Bard's other assets more valuable than the Barbarian's?

It may be silly, but this whole little mini-discussion ultimately centers around one's definition of the word "close." I probably wouldn't even have responded at all if Shade hadn't been so dismissive. The numbers suggest to me that a properly built Battle Bard can at least be competitive with a non-Bard-buffed Barbarian in terms of DPS.

[A_Sheep]

Well, we've got an interesting conversation going on here. Shade's reaction is understandable and from reading many of his other posts, I believe he isn't being rude or flaming.

Maldini said many of the same things that you have said, Shade, when he read this.

My assertion that Taalisyn's DPS is comparable to a raging barbarian is a very loose assertion. I did the math using my own barbarian build as the comparison and without madstone rage applied. My build is very similar to your max DPS build, but he only has the Power Attack II enhancement. I did the comparison comparing a +5 Holy greataxe with dual wielding +5 Holy Khopeshes (and I've also run through the math with khopesh/kukri and with power attack on and off and with +5 elemental of righteousness, which all are the most DPS at certain times.)

I strongly suggest, Shade, that you take a look at a Greataxe-wielding barbarian with Greater Heroism and Haste and compare it to this build. If your calcs can't handle glancing blows, it's a waste of time. Taalisyn will 'win' without glances.

A Khopesh or deathnip dual-wielding barbarian will probably out-DPS this build. A khopesh or deathnip dual-wielding barbarian will also out-DPS Shade's Max DPS build.

I'm just talking here and talk means nothing. I suspect I will enter a Mathbarian Rage Frenzy in an hour or so and knock out some calcualtions and graphs.

Let's say: Taal V Shade's Max DPS build +5 Holy weapons, seeker +6 items, free Greater Heroism/Haste/Rage for Barbarian. One madstone rage active on the barb (but not attack speed increase thereby as it doesn't stack with Haste), I get 42 Str.

This part is controversial, but true: 94 swings/min for Taalisyn, 90 swings/min for the barbarian. Sorry, I wish it weren't true, but it is. A dual-wielding male human swings faster than a THF-ing male Dwarf. We can run it with 90 swings/min for both as well, but it won't be as accurate.

Obviously, this isn't a comparison of the builds, only the standing-still DPS. Both builds have many ancillary qualities that make them attractive.

As far as BAB=faster attacking. Come on, Shade, you know that's not true. BAB 1-4 is like 120 swings/min or something ridiculous like that, BAB 5-9 is ~100 and BAB 10-14 is ~90. BAB 15 seems to be something like 80. BAB difference only affects attack speed when the animation changes anyways, and Taal is in the same bracket as Shade's Max DPS build here.

[A_Sheep]

As far as buffs that affect damage, Taal could (if I were a better player) have constant divine favor. Much more constant than Shade's Madstone. I could buy what 30 DF scrolls for the price of one rage potion? Divine power is useful as well, but not as much with next mods attack speed slow-down.

Again, not saying that Taal is leaps and bounds ahead of Shade's Max DPS, but comparable. (within 10&#37;?)

[Shade]

lol I was comparing you to a TWF barbarian..
To think you can even come close to my THF build is just laughable.

It wouldn't even be a contest. It's not 10%, its more like 10 times. Glancing blows are incredibly powerful. I group with dps-style warchanters all the time, and if one of them manages half or even a third of my kills im incredibly impressed.

[redoubt]

lol I was comparing you to a TWF barbarian..
To think you can even come close to my THF build is just laughable.

It wouldn't even be a contest. It's not 10%, its more like 10 times. Glancing blows are incredibly powerful. I group with dps-style warchanters all the time, and if one of them manages half or even a third of my kills im incredibly impressed.

You are right... when you group with warchanters you win.

I believe the original point was that a warchanting bard was good dps. Even really close to a barb who was not being buffed by said warchanter. When you get the buffs the warchanter puts out you had darn well better out do him. :eek:

Redoubt :cool:

[Obitus]

lol I was comparing you to a TWF barbarian..
To think you can even come close to my THF build is just laughable.

It wouldn't even be a contest. It's not 10%, its more like 10 times. Glancing blows are incredibly powerful. I group with dps-style warchanters all the time, and if one of them manages half or even a third of my kills im incredibly impressed.

When comparing kill counts, you should keep in mind a few things:

1. You are receiving the Bard's buffs.
2. You (as a Barbarian) run faster.
3. You don't (in contrast with the Bard) have to worry about stopping to refresh buffs.

DPS is a theoretical tool, designed to measure how much damage a given character or group of characters can deal over a given period of constantly attacking. That is to say, if Taal and Shade started attacking a stationary opponent at the same time, who would do more damage?

The answer is clearly Shade's Barb build, but the disparity is not so large as you've repeatedly (despite all evidence to the contrary) claimed. You outdamage Taal by a factor of ten? LOL, come on now.

If Taal faces off against the average Barbarian, the margin is probably small enough so as not to be noticeable at all.

Barbarians do benefit from the Bard's buffs if the two builds are teamed together, but that is actually an advantage for the Bard if we're comparing both characters' DPS contribution; the Bard does Barbarian-esque DPS in his own right, and he adds a huge amount of DPS to every other weapon-using character in the party.

[Shade]

DPS is a theoretical tool, designed to measure how much damage a given character or group of characters can deal over a given period of constantly attacking. That is to say, if Taal and Shade started attacking a stationary opponent at the same time, who would do more damage?
.

You might think that.

But i like to define DPS as more of a logical score, that actually means something. IE: The overall damage done overtime in a real quest, not something you can calculate with math or some spreadsheet, but rather just by having a good knowledge of the game and yes, like it or not, killcounts.

No monsters stand still in DDO - they freaking jump around like crazy speed-addicts... as such movement speed and attack range do play a large factor in real DPS.. That gives a large advantage to the fluid-attack-on-the-run THF style i use - vs the much more clumsy and difficult to control TWF-moving attacks.

Single target dps vs 1 100&#37;-stationary object is a poor way to gauge a build, as its not something that will realisticly happen in the game.

And yea 10 times. It's a perfectly accurate number, i have 52 strength.... Things get hurt when i swing, they get hurt allot :)

[EinarMal]

You might think that.

But i like to define DPS as more of a logical score, that actually means something. IE: The overall damage done overtime in a real quest, not something you can calculate with math or some spreadsheet, but rather just by having a good knowledge of the game and yes, like it or not, killcounts.

No monsters stand still in DDO - they freaking jump around like crazy speed-addicts... as such movement speed and attack range do play a large factor in real DPS.. That gives a large advantage to the fluid-attack-on-the-run THF style i use - vs the much more clumsy and difficult to control TWF-moving attacks.

Single target dps vs 1 100&#37;-stationary object is a poor way to gauge a build, as its not something that will realisticly happen in the game.

And yea 10 times. It's a perfectly accurate number, i have 52 strength.... Things get hurt when i swing, they get hurt allot :)

Just curious if you ever took Renegade up on his challenge to back up what you are claiming here, if TWF is so clumsy that is....:rolleyes:

[EinarMal]

You might think that.

But i like to define DPS as more of a logical score, that actually means something. IE: The overall damage done overtime in a real quest, not something you can calculate with math or some spreadsheet, but rather just by having a good knowledge of the game and yes, like it or not, killcounts.

No monsters stand still in DDO - they freaking jump around like crazy speed-addicts... as such movement speed and attack range do play a large factor in real DPS.. That gives a large advantage to the fluid-attack-on-the-run THF style i use - vs the much more clumsy and difficult to control TWF-moving attacks.

Single target dps vs 1 100%-stationary object is a poor way to gauge a build, as its not something that will realisticly happen in the game.

And yea 10 times. It's a perfectly accurate number, i have 52 strength.... Things get hurt when i swing, they get hurt allot :)

You seem to make two claims here:

1. TWF is inferior to two handed fighting - Rather dubious given your own mysterious vanishing act when challenged

2. Your 52 strength claim is vastly superior to a Bard self buffed. A Bard with 30 base strength and +8 from a Bard song essentially has 46 strength while TWF, and your 52 strength is not constant but dependent on item effects occurring. So very little difference....

[Obitus]

You might think that.

But i like to define DPS as more of a logical score, that actually means something. IE: The overall damage done overtime in a real quest, not something you can calculate with math or some spreadsheet, but rather just by having a good knowledge of the game and yes, like it or not, killcounts.

The math is only there to give us some idea of a build's capabilities. If we start introducing other factors, then we're no longer talking about damage potential; we're discussing a whole mess of other factors which could get very messy.

It goes without saying (though I've said it twice already that I recall) that a Barbarian will tend to win in kill counts, if only because he moves faster and doesn't have to stop to buff -- or, god help you, watch party members' health bars. Barbarians are only expected to do one thing, and thus they're more free to do that one thing.

That's all fine and good, but it's silly to dismiss a build's capabilities solely on the basis that it may be expected to do other things. If someone posts DPS calcs on a Battle cleric, I'm not going to say his numbers are wrong because he should shut up and heal. I may not necessarily agree with his play style, or I may refuse to play a battle Cleric myself because I don't want the hassle of explaining my build to every PuG -- but none of that is relevant to the question as to what the build can do.

There is certainly a correlation between kill counts and damage delivered. No one's disputing that (at least that I've seen), but because you dominate kill counts, it doesn't follow that a battle Bard couldn't have filled your party role and been similarly effective.


No monsters stand still in DDO - they freaking jump around like crazy speed-addicts... as such movement speed and attack range do play a large factor in real DPS.. That gives a large advantage to the fluid-attack-on-the-run THF style i use - vs the much more clumsy and difficult to control TWF-moving attacks.

Some monsters move around a lot. Others, in my experience, do not. For the most part, and especially if you have aggro, you can maintain a decent rate of attack without taking the -4 movement penalty. Either way, I don't see how THF on the run is clearly superior to TWF on the run.


Single target dps vs 1 100&#37;-stationary object is a poor way to gauge a build, as its not something that will realisticly happen in the game.

Poor or not, that's what DPS is. There are no neat models that translate perfectly to organic situations.


And yea 10 times. It's a perfectly accurate number, i have 52 strength.... Things get hurt when i swing, they get hurt allot :)

See EinarMal's post. We appear to be back where we started.

[Borror0]

Ten times huh?


30 Str means +10.

52 Str means +21. So that's only double.

However, the bards has buffs and the barbarian has x1,5 damage because he is THF. so..

30 Str means +10, plus 89 for bards buff. For a total of 19.

52 Str means +21, times 1,5 for THF. For a total of 31,5.

So, 1,66 times more. Not ten. Besides, you don't have that 52 ALL the time.

Then, you have 4 attacks versus 7 attacks. For a 1,75 factor... :)

[maddmatt70]

You might think that.

But i like to define DPS as more of a logical score, that actually means something. IE: The overall damage done overtime in a real quest, not something you can calculate with math or some spreadsheet, but rather just by having a good knowledge of the game and yes, like it or not, killcounts.

No monsters stand still in DDO - they freaking jump around like crazy speed-addicts... as such movement speed and attack range do play a large factor in real DPS.. That gives a large advantage to the fluid-attack-on-the-run THF style i use - vs the much more clumsy and difficult to control TWF-moving attacks.

Single target dps vs 1 100&#37;-stationary object is a poor way to gauge a build, as its not something that will realisticly happen in the game.

And yea 10 times. It's a perfectly accurate number, i have 52 strength.... Things get hurt when i swing, they get hurt allot :)

Two things regarding dps calculated in terms of kill counts: 1. I have been on quests with certain sorcerors for instance who waited until the last second to cast lets say a force missle on monsters that a melee had already taken 75% - 95% of the life from and thus registering a kill, but doing very little in terms of actual dps. 2. The end boss or red named which should be worth far more then 1 kill in terms of the importance to the quest and difficulty for the quest is not taken into account more so then an individual kill. Two weapon fighters do more damage against red bosses then the equivalent thf especially where bards are concerned...

[A_Sheep]

The answer is clearly Shade's Barb build.


NO!

The answer is not "clearly" anything. We get ourselves into this hole in the first place by assuming instead of knowing.

And now, the much awaited culmination of my mathbarian frenzy.

Assumptions of this test:
Stationary-
All DPS values are calculated assuming that the characters are stationary.

Weapons-
I gave Taal +5 Holy Khopeshes and Axer a +5 Holy Greataxe.

Buffs-
I gave Axer Rage Spell, 1 Madstone Rage, Haste, and Greater Heroism. (Blood Rage is very applicable, but only in specific situations. It's an overall drain on a combat character if used in normal combat.)
I gave Taalisyn his own self-buff songs and spells and divine favor.

Wepon attack speeds-
Taalisyn- 94 swings/min (admittedly controversial 4.4% faster attack rate boost for Human Dual-wielding compared to Dwarf THFing)
Axer- 90 swings/min

Glancing Blows-
Glancing Blows are calculated for single target DPS only. Glancing blows are calculated as 40% of the base damage of the weapon.

Disclaimer: This is only estimated/potential DPS and does not include action boosts, which can be a large contribution to overall DPS. For the sake of knowledge, Axer has access to a damage boost (although did not choose to have it in his build because DR boost is more attractive and I agree with him) for +5 to damage and Taalisyn has Human Versatility IV for +5 to damage or to-hit and Fighter's Haste for +15% attack speed.

Here (http://i215.photobucket.com/albums/cc219/UndistinguishedDM/Shade_Taal.jpg) is the graph of both with power attack on.

In the following text comparison, however, I will use the attack stance (PA or no PA) that favors the character the most.

Some Text:
From AC 0-AC 30: Taalisn has 140.387, Axer has 131.955 (6.4% difference)
Then Taal's DPS begins to go down due to missing.
@ AC 34: Both builds have ~132 DPS.
@AC 35: Taalisyn 129.078; Axer 131.955 (2.2% difference)
By AC 36, Axer's DPS begins to decrease due to missing.
@ AC 39, Taalisyn is better off without PA
AC 40: Taalisyn (No PA) 112.314; Axer 118.605 (5.3% difference)
@ AC 47 Axer is better off without PA
AC 50: Taalisyn (No PA) 66.619; Axer (No PA) 79.594 (16.3% difference)
AC 60: Taalisyn 16.182 (No PA); Axer (No PA) 34.097 (53% difference)
By AC 70, both builds are hitting only on a 20 and at ~6 DPS

The idea that nobody could "possibly be close" to any specific build in any category is proposterous. What is not proposterous is knowing that the DPS calculations shown above are limited. While moving, Taalisyn's DPS moves up significantly more than Shade's does and while you could calculate moving entirely, to predict know how much you are moving/not moving is nearly impossible. The situation is so complicated that the only reasonable approach is to mix hard predictions and facts (like these calculations) with reasonable but somewhat less grounded assumptions, like "Taalisyn keeps his damage boost or haste boost up X% of the time" or "Axer reaches targets 10% more quickly than Taalisyn" kinds of things.

What I hope to have proven here is that Taalisyn is comparable to a Raging Barbarian. With Divine Power on, he would surpass Axer's DPS from AC 0-AC 37. After that, he remains within 10% until AC 50. In my opinion, that's comparable. Making guesses using other factors, we'd end up with a simple shouting match and we'd be going very very deep into the builds and the playstyles used. What is yelled the loudest shouldn't be a metric of truth (sorry democracy).

[Verlock]

Hey on your Alignment why go T.N not C.G for Chaosblades wiht out a neg lv seeing as if your useing khopeshs in the end you will be useing them any ways right

[geezee]

Bravo Sheep! With math, graphs, and rational argument you have proven what many of us have known all along. Thanks for bringing the knowledge of this board to a new level.

Note that neither one of them is doing much damage above AC 50, when the barb's edge finally becomes noticable.

[Obitus]

NO!

The answer is not "clearly" anything. We get ourselves into this hole in the first place by assuming instead of knowing.

Hey, I wanted to give the guy the benefit of the doubt -- stipulating that his quoted 52 STR was a fair number, which I don't believe it to be, but whatever. If he has 52 STR and you have 32, and he has Critical Rage II and Barbarian's Power Attack, then he clearly has an edge in a toe-to-toe comparison, because your Bard song can't offset the difference in strength combined with the difference in Power Attack.

After months (on and off for me) on these boards, I've come to the conclusion that it's pointless to try to argue much of anything with respect specifically to Shade's builds; it seemed more worthwhile to approach the discussion from the viewpoint that his 52 STR is not in any way representative of Barbarians. But if you want to get into a debate about how the assumptions in your analysis are unfair to Shade's specific build, then more power to you. I'm not getting on that ship.

Obviously, alignment and elemental damage mods favor the dual wielder in any comparison. If we take away the Holy prefix from your comparison, then the Barbarian's relative damage shoots up a bit. Regardless, I think it's been pretty evident from the beginning that Taal is comparable to a Raging Barbarian in DPS. You don't need graphs to understand that.

We've only gone this far in the discussion because certain people have refused to look at or provide any evidence either supporting or refuting their closely held opinions.


Glancing Blows-
Glancing Blows are calculated for single target DPS only. Glancing blows are calculated as 40&#37; of the base damage of the weapon.

I assume you mean "base damage, including weapon, STR mods, feat mobs, and enhancement mods." The way it's written now, you may get jumped all over.


The idea that nobody could "possibly be close" to any specific build in any category is proposterous. What is not proposterous is knowing that the DPS calculations shown above are limited. While moving, Taalisyn's DPS moves up significantly more than Shade's does and while you could calculate moving entirely, to predict know how much you are moving/not moving is nearly impossible. The situation is so complicated that the only reasonable approach is to mix hard predictions and facts (like these calculations) with reasonable but somewhat less grounded assumptions, like "Taalisyn keeps his damage boost or haste boost up X% of the time" or "Axer reaches targets 10% more quickly than Taalisyn" kinds of things.

Agreed, though I think that the run speed is for the most part an illusory advantage; it will allow a Barbarian an edge in determining kill counts, but the question is whether having a Barbarian running around like a rabbit on crack to get the most kills actually makes the party's job any easier. In some situations, I'd guess yes, while in others, I'd guess no. As madmatt pointed out earlier, most monsters in a given quest really aren't that big a threat anyway. DPS is most applicable and -- fittingly enough -- most important against hard targets, like bosses.


What I hope to have proven here is that Taalisyn is comparable to a Raging Barbarian. With Divine Power on, he would surpass Axer's DPS from AC 0-AC 37. After that, he remains within 10% until AC 50. In my opinion, that's comparable. Making guesses using other factors, we'd end up with a simple shouting match and we'd be going very very deep into the builds and the playstyles used. What is yelled the loudest shouldn't be a metric of truth (sorry democracy).

Couldn't agree more.

[geezee]

By the way, howcome the barb got so many more rages than the bard? Cant the bard wear madstone boots and whatever else too? And also, are you giving the barb perma rage clickies and haste pots? If so he should lose some DPS from taking time for those all the time.

[aldan]

deleted

[aldan]

Holy fricking schmoly, you guys sound like you have PHDs in Bardology.

Great math calcs and theoretical builds. Whats the bottom line here.

Warchanters Bards put out some serious DPS, so does a raged barbarian.

Sounds like they are kindof close but really depends on what items you have and the enhancements etc.

Bottom line: Both kick major arse and a ITWF Taal Warchanter and a raged Barb are good to have in the group.

[A_Sheep]

Hey on your Alignment why go T.N not C.G for Chaosblades wiht out a neg lv seeing as if your useing khopeshs in the end you will be useing them any ways right

TN can use Anarchic or Axiomatic weapons without a neg level. I do have one chaosblade and it is quite handy versus some enemies.

[aldan]

I would like the thank Taal for this fun a heck build. I am level 12 Bard 1 fighter right now and will probably not take a second level of fighter at 14.

I just dont know how things are going to turn out and I can always take fighter later.


Great fricking build tho.

[A_Sheep]

I would like the thank Taal for this fun a heck build. I am level 12 Bard 1 fighter right now and will probably not take a second level of fighter at 14.

I just dont know how things are going to turn out and I can always take fighter later.


Great fricking build tho.

Yeah, if I were building it from scratch today, I'd prolly go with 15 Bard/1 Fighter, but the overall advantage is small.

[nbhs275]

Yeah, if I were building it from scratch today, I'd prolly go with 15 Bard/1 Fighter, but the overall advantage is small.

Have the new bard spells had any major effect on your stance? The cap has added new dimensions to my arguement against this type of build, though i havent played any of the new content yet. So i wont make a hard pact statement on how they change up the math metagame. Though now that even a 15-1 can get max inspire song, it is definately no where near as taboo to me to multi a bard.

[A_Sheep]

Have the new bard spells had any major effect on your stance? The cap has added new dimensions to my arguement against this type of build, though i havent played any of the new content yet. So i wont make a hard pact statement on how they change up the math metagame. Though now that even a 15-1 can get max inspire song, it is definately no where near as taboo to me to multi a bard.

Nah, the new bard spells (Otto's Irresistable and Great Shout) are decent, but don't persuade me.

As far as the new content in terms of this type of build, focused casters have trouble landing spells in the Vale due to the double whammy of high SR and high saves on outsiders. DPS spells still work great, of course, but "a little bit" of spellcasting ability isn't going to help as much as versus giants and humanoids. Fascinate, of course, still works great.

[nbhs275]

Nah, the new bard spells (Otto's Irresistable and Great Shout) are decent, but don't persuade me.

As far as the new content in terms of this type of build, focused casters have trouble landing spells in the Vale due to the double whammy of high SR and high saves on outsiders. DPS spells still work great, of course, but "a little bit" of spellcasting ability isn't going to help as much as versus giants and humanoids. Fascinate, of course, still works great.

I don't know how much SR really plays against a bard. From what i saw just in the explorer area of the new content, the devils saves and SR arent especially high<though im sure that like anywhere else that becomes less true on elite>. Though i think the new ottos will be sorely missed in situations when outnumbered without the option to run.

[skraus1]

Though i think the new ottos will be sorely missed in situations when outnumbered without the option to run.

I thought that was what swords and sorcerrors were for.:)

But yeah, their saves are not outrageous, but their SR can be. In devils elite, it's sr 34 or 35 I believe for most of them.

I do know that I'm looking forward to the day when my 16 cha (with an item) will finally pay off and I can make a mob dance. :)

[EinarMal]

I thought that was what swords and sorcerrors were for.:)

But yeah, their saves are not outrageous, but their SR can be. In devils elite, it's sr 34 or 35 I believe for most of them.

I do know that I'm looking forward to the day when my 16 cha (with an item) will finally pay off and I can make a mob dance. :)

The best Bard spell against elite devils is lowly glitterdust, especially if you have some rogue levels or with a rogue in the party. It doesn't make an SR check and works great. I took heighten on my deadly singer build so that I could make use of glitterdust/grease which do not require an SR check. You still need a decent spell DC obviously so I don't think it would work with 16 cha! For those that have a hybrid type build like mine that casts/fights its a great spell.

The only downside is the crazy slow casting speed, I am serisously considering taking quicken as well because that spell is so sslooooooooowwww to cast.

[aldan]

think I am going 15 bard 1 fighter and not 14/ 2 fighter. I am all about the extra feat, and more hp but I want future mods as well.

I can always take a level of fighter later in the game but if mod 7 comes out and i need 15 bard for warchanter then I am hosed.

Great build though, made it to level 16 and havent leveled yet due to waffling over the fighter/bard issue.

I do think the Talisan warchanter is one of the better builds out there. Dwarven is nice but the extra feat from human is key.

[Ayjona]

Shameless abuse of Sheeps seemingly excellent sense of bard-building:

Sheep, I'm about to make myself a bard, but without the benefits of 32 points and tomes. Also, if possible, I'd like to use rapiers (mostly for flavour reasons, but it also frees up a feat, right?) and, for some reason that stems from a perverse darkness in my soul, remain a pure bard. With all these expections, do you think your build (well, something reasonably close to it, anyways) would still be a viable option for a bard who would rather scream incoherently and use his lute to pound his enemy over the head than use it to win the heart of the maiden fair?

Also, if it is indeed a viable option, have you any advice on how I should go about it? While I should be getting one more feat from not taking the exotic weapons feat, I still need to drop another one. Would that be the extend spell feat?

EDIT: Hmm, I just discovered something. Wouldn't I be loosing one point of strength from going pure bard, from not being able to choose Fighter's Strength? I've seen mentions of losing HP and the extra feat in several pure bard vs. 14/2 bard-fighters comparisons, but never anything on this point of strength.

[A_Sheep]

A Drow 28-point variant is defintiely viable. You lose out on Con, strength, Human Versatility, and a feat, but gain not having to have 32-point builds and Drow Rapier/Short Sword enhancements. The Icy build resembles that kind of thinking better than this build. The 28-point human version isn't too bad either, but I think I like the Drow a bit better.



EDIT: Hmm, I just discovered something. Wouldn't I be loosing one point of strength from going pure bard, from not being able to choose Fighter's Strength? I've seen mentions of losing HP and the extra feat in several pure bard vs. 14/2 bard-fighters comparisons, but never anything on this point of strength.

Yeah, 16 or 15 bard loses 1 point of strength versus 14/2 ftr, in addition to the other differences you mention.

[maddmatt70]

A Drow 28-point variant is defintiely viable. You lose out on Con, strength, Human Versatility, and a feat, but gain not having to have 32-point builds and Drow Rapier/Short Sword enhancements. The Icy build resembles that kind of thinking better than this build. The 28-point human version isn't too bad either, but I think I like the Drow a bit better.



Yeah, 16 or 15 bard loses 1 point of strength versus 14/2 ftr, in addition to the other differences you mention.

Honestly though would you really recommend the icy build. The hit points on the icy build are too low to take on the pit fiend in part 5 on normal. Taal here can tank the pit fiend on part 5 with the right raid loot and using fire shield scrolls. I know because my battle bard rabiez is similiar to the Taal build and has just enough to tank the pit fiend now. If you are a battle bard what do you do in the scenario where you can't fight the pit fiend use scrolls and try to heal - which you are not built to do? I like to go everywhere the other melees do with my battle bard its when I cant that rerolling would become a possiblity for me... A drow bard can tank the pit fiend but would need to put substantial resources into hit points - a starting con of 16 is not out of the question..

[A_Sheep]

A drow bard can tank the pit fiend but would need to put substantial resources into hit points - a starting con of 16 is not out of the question..

Taal gets 3 points of con + an additional feat (possibly for toughness) over an Icy in the hitpoint front. That's not nothing, but it ain't everything. Could a Drow viably hit 14 con with this type of build?

Str 16 (10 pts)
Dex 16 (6 pts)
Con 14 (10 pts)
Int 10
Wis 8
Cha 12 (2 pts)

That's losing 1 pt of strength at creation v. Taal, but it's definitely do-able. Speaking of which, if you don't plan on anything better than a +2 tome in Str, then Taal could get his Con up to 16.
Taal with only +2 str tome.
Str 16 (10) +4 levels +1 Human Adapt. + 1 Fighter's + 6 Item + 2 Tome + 2 Rage Spell = even number (32)
Dex 16 (10)
Con 16 (10) +6 item + 1 tome +2 rage spell +1 Human Adapt. = 26
Int 8
Wis 8
Cha 10 (2)

With one toughness and fighter's toughness I...

84 (bard 14) + 20 (ftr 2) + 18 (toughness) + 5 Ftr Tough I + 20 Heroic + 10 Argonessen Favor + 128 HP + 30 GFL + 18? Minos Legens = 333 HP Drow ain't incredibly far behind that necessarily (actual Taal is 294)

-23 (toughness) - 32 Con difference = 278

I went oversized TWF, but it's a close one between that and toughness. If I start playing more again, I may decide to change my mind if this HP turns out not to be enough. (I haven't been around much since the mod came out :()

A Dwarf could rock the HP big time if he stuffed a toughness into his feats. A guildmate of mine has a very nice TWF Dwarf Battle Bard. Don't know what the final HP came out to be on him though.

[Borror0]

Don't know what the final HP came out to be on him though.

Taal +68 HP.

[maddmatt70]

Taal gets 3 points of con + an additional feat (possibly for toughness) over an Icy in the hitpoint front. That's not nothing, but it ain't everything. Could a Drow viably hit 14 con with this type of build?

Str 16 (10 pts)
Dex 16 (6 pts)
Con 14 (10 pts)
Int 10
Wis 8
Cha 12 (2 pts)

That's losing 1 pt of strength at creation v. Taal, but it's definitely do-able. Speaking of which, if you don't plan on anything better than a +2 tome in Str, then Taal could get his Con up to 16.
Taal with only +2 str tome.
Str 16 (10) +4 levels +1 Human Adapt. + 1 Fighter's + 6 Item + 2 Tome + 2 Rage Spell = even number (32)
Dex 16 (10)
Con 16 (10) +6 item + 1 tome +2 rage spell +1 Human Adapt. = 26
Int 8
Wis 8
Cha 10 (2)

With one toughness and fighter's toughness I...

84 (bard 14) + 20 (ftr 2) + 18 (toughness) + 5 Ftr Tough I + 20 Heroic + 10 Argonessen Favor + 128 HP + 30 GFL + 18? Minos Legens = 333 HP Drow ain't incredibly far behind that necessarily (actual Taal is 294)

-23 (toughness) - 32 Con difference = 278

I went oversized TWF, but it's a close one between that and toughness. If I start playing more again, I may decide to change my mind if this HP turns out not to be enough. (I haven't been around much since the mod came out :()

A Dwarf could rock the HP big time if he stuffed a toughness into his feats. A guildmate of mine has a very nice TWF Dwarf Battle Bard. Don't know what the final HP came out to be on him though.

278 hp sadly isn't enough hp in there even with fire shield (maybe if the char had a very high ac - I ran with a 72Ac rogue, he had pally aura + inspire heroics + barkskin, the other day who survived pretty easily). There is one raid item that your not including - the +45 hit point item from the new raid which would put the drow to 323. 323 is right at the cut off for survival - I know this because Rabiez my level 16 pure battle bard has 320 hit points. At that point it becomes about the quality of the group your running with, their focus, and your skill to an extent. If you could up that drow to 16 con it becomes more viable for tanking, but then you would need a +3 dex tome for gtwf or would start with 15 str.

Edited: actually the drow could have 16 str, 15 dex, 15 con, 10 int, 10 cha, 8 wis. Put a level up point into con and 3 into strength. dex +2 tome for gtwf. That is probably how I would go. The level up point into con and the like makes me cringe but you still have drow racial weapons (rapier) enhancements and such to make up the difference.

[Davinna]

A_sheep,
Could you update the post with your Mod 6 stats, feats spells, etc? If you did, just slap me and point me in the right direction. :p

[aldan]

Been running at lvl 16 ready for two weeks now cause I cannot make up my darn mind on 14 bard/2 fighter or 15 bard/1 fighter.

Was hoping to hear some Mod 7 info that pertains to bards but havent heard anything yet. If they said Warchanter II was coming out and the req was 15 Bard, then you know I am taking 15 Bard. I will just start working on favor for a while I guess.

Taal build is the best thing going for sure. Parties love him, especially the fighters and barbs.

[Purgatory]

Feats:
1 - Extend Spell
3 - Power Attack
6 - Toughness
9 - Two-Weapon Fighting
11 (Fighter Bonus) - Improved Critical (P)
12 - Improved Two-Weapon Fighting
15 - Greater Two-weapon Fighting

str - 17
dex - 15(17) (+2 tome)
con - 17
int - 8(10) (+2tome)
wis - 8
chr - 9

would this work with deathnips on a dwarf for a huge increase to hp with out loseing dps could push close to 28 con and 400 hp with raid item and enhancements

[A_Sheep]

Feats:
1 - Extend Spell
3 - Power Attack
6 - Toughness
9 - Two-Weapon Fighting
11 (Fighter Bonus) - Improved Critical (P)
12 - Improved Two-Weapon Fighting
15 - Greater Two-weapon Fighting

str - 17
dex - 15(17) (+2 tome)
con - 17
int - 8(10) (+2tome)
wis - 8
chr - 9

would this work with deathnips on a dwarf for a huge increase to hp with out loseing dps could push close to 28 con and 400 hp with raid item and enhancements

You'll have to drop extend because you need weapon focus to qualify for Warchanter... Or you could make it two fighter levels. Also, nicely crafted shroud-ish khopeshes can narrowly out-do deathnip. The choice of using puncturing rapiers, however, is really tempting, since they really make the monster mushy fast.

[Chorus]

lol

[Beherit_Baphomar]

This build might be out of date now, but is easily tweeked...and Im using it.

[A_Sheep]

Good to see you're enjoying it on your ???halfling???, Bee.

I have re-rolled a new one: the Talesinger of Elphin. Almost the same thing, but different starting stats:

Str 18
Dex 15 (+2 tome now required)
Con 14
Int 8
Wis 8
Cha 10 (+1 enhancement, +1 litany?, and +1 tome to make level 3 spells castable without items, but could also toss a +2 tome in there to make level 4 spells castable without items)

I'm level 6.3 right now on the ever slightly improved Talesinger and having a blast as usual. 30 AC, nearly +20 to hit with PA off and a nice khopesh. Very OP.

I need to make the decision concerning level split pretty soon so I can plan out my feats.

In the one corner, we have 20 Bard:
Gets 8 feats- (Weapon Focus, Improved Crit (although something makes it so you don't need that anymore???), Power Attack, TWF, ITWF, GTWF, Extend, Toughness or OTWF)
Gets +1 to hit and damage extra on the song.
Is 'future-proofed' in terms of future warchanter-directed enhancements.

In the other corner, we have the good ole 18 Bard/2 Fighter
Gets +8 more HP and 10 Feats: could add OTWF and stunning blow or somesuch.
Adds some good, cheap enhancement selections.

I've seen alot of posts saying that survivability is really tough at the top levels and looks to get only worse. If this is the case, I may roll with the 18/2 version, especially since there's no 'future' warchanter stuffs being tossed out there yet.

I guess I don't have to make a decision until 11th level.

And can someone tell me what the heck Mineral II's are?

[~Jules921]

Mineral II is a Shroud crafted weapon -

Element of Mineral (Weapon)........= Keen/Impact, Transmuting, Slicing, Increased Weapon Durability and Toughness

The above is taken from here (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?p=1519598#post1519598)

Jules

[A_Sheep]

I still don't entirely get all the shroud crafting, but I figure you can add this in addition to some other good enhancements to this shroud weapon. And if it's transmuting, it will be pretty much the only weapon I use, so I could (in the far far future) run with these feats (at level 20):

1-PA, Extend
3-Khopesh
6-Wepon Focus
9-TWF
12-ITWF
15-GTWF
18-Toughness

And pick up a few levels of racial toughness to boot (avail to humans after greater adapt: con enhancement). I dunno, though... Adding 2 ftr levels lets me keep imp crit, have toughness, and then my choice of OTWF, Imp crit: pierce, or another toughness. Also gives me +1 str, haste boost, another 5 HP toughness enh.

1 Ftr lets me keep imp. crit, and might give the haste boost enh.

I'm still pretty torn. I'm level 9 on Talesinger, so I probably ought to decide soon, so I can spread out the skill point suckiness.

There might be a warchanter capstone down the road and that last +1 inspire courage is pretty awesome... I know madmatt would say that the extra HP from ftr and the toughness it affords the build are needed, but I still wonder...

[Borror0]

Welcome back?

As for Shroud crafting, take a look at this wiki article (http://ddo.enterwiki.net/page/Green_Steel_item_crafting_steps).

[A_Sheep]

hey Borro! Ja, I've read crafting stuff until my eyes are tired, but until I get into the shroud a few times, I doubt I'll have a full understanding of how much effort it is to make these things.

You still run your battlebard much?

He was 15/1, yeah?

[Borror0]

You still run your battlebard much?

He was 15/1, yeah?
Yeah, even posted the build here (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=172958).

I do, when I play. He is still lots of fun to play but I don't play much lately. Hopefully Module 9 will be enough to convince me to play again. Otherwise, I'll just take a break from DDO and come back later. Playing LOTRO right now, until Module 9.

[A_Sheep]

Yeah, even posted the build here (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=172958).

I do, when I play. He is still lots of fun to play but I don't play much lately. Hopefully Module 9 will be enough to convince me to play again. Otherwise, I'll just take a break from DDO and come back later. Playing LOTRO right now, until Module 9.

Ja, games are most fun when they are fresh. Been a blast coming back after a few mods and some time away.

[A_Sheep]

Although very few may care...

I've decided that I cannot wait to get the improved critical feat, so I'm going to splash a level of fighter at 11. I'm planning another level of fighter @ 17 if things don't change much. I see little chance that they'll put out a 'warchanter' capstone (and for good reason: 75% of the warchanter builds I see on the forums are multiclass!) and while I will sorely miss the final improved inspire courage, the added HP/Str/Feats/BaB will make me very happy AND I've tried it before.

As I've said, levelling a battlebard is a thoroughly enjoyable experience as you have good saves, AC, healing ability, buffs, self-haste, etc through the lower levels, so even though the build has only changed one str point, I am glad I took the time to reroll and get reacquainted with this game.

[Ayjona]

Although very few may care...

Well, if we are few, I am still one of those few. I've been playing meek (since I do not have the time to play often enough to yet have earned all those tomes and 32 points) versions of your Taalisyn build for a long time, and I've never had more fun in DDO. I'm especially interested in the pure bard versus 1-2 levels of fighter internal debate yer having.

So, keep posting. I, for one, will keep reading ;-)

[A_Sheep]

My GF started a character on my account, so I started another account to play with her. Haven't been able to get this guy to cap yet :(. Pretty excited about doing it, though, as soon as the servers come back.

[aldan]

I still don't entirely get all the shroud crafting, but I figure you can add this in addition to some other good enhancements to this shroud weapon. And if it's transmuting, it will be pretty much the only weapon I use, so I could (in the far far future) run with these feats (at level 20):

1-PA, Extend
3-Khopesh
6-Wepon Focus
9-TWF
12-ITWF
15-GTWF
18-Toughness

And pick up a few levels of racial toughness to boot (avail to humans after greater adapt: con enhancement). I dunno, though... Adding 2 ftr levels lets me keep imp crit, have toughness, and then my choice of OTWF, Imp crit: pierce, or another toughness. Also gives me +1 str, haste boost, another 5 HP toughness enh.

1 Ftr lets me keep imp. crit, and might give the haste boost enh.

I'm still pretty torn. I'm level 9 on Talesinger, so I probably ought to decide soon, so I can spread out the skill point suckiness.

There might be a warchanter capstone down the road and that last +1 inspire courage is pretty awesome... I know madmatt would say that the extra HP from ftr and the toughness it affords the build are needed, but I still wonder...

I am still playing the old build and love it. At level 18 now and no real problems other than HP and I need a shroud HP item.

Love the build though, recommended to others when it came out.

[Cheswick]

Can you update this build for level 20 and the oversized weapon two weapon fighting feat?

Also Warchanter PrE

Thanks,

Hi Welcome

[Balrogskin]

Can you update this build for level 20 and the oversized weapon two weapon fighting feat?

Also Warchanter PrE

Thanks,

Hi Welcome

Maybe you should link this build or refer it to one of the active builders on the site. Besides you nobody has posted in this particular thread for a long time. Just tryin to be helpful ;)

[Irinis]

Or you could take a look at the Roq Star build.