New Metamagic system info:

[Mhykke]

These have just cleared QA and I've appended them to yesterday's WDA. :)


Other

NEW - The metamagic system in Dungeons and Dragons Online has undergone significant changes in Module 5.0: Accursed Ascension.

The biggest change that casters will discover is that each metamagic feat other than Heighten Spell now has a fixed spell point cost increase rather than multiplying the spell point cost of a spell as they did before Module 5.0. These surcharges are as follows:

Empower Spell: +15 SP
Empower Healing Spell: +10 SP
Enlarge Spell: +10 SP
Eschew Materials: +2 SP
Extend Spell: +10 SP
Maximize Spell: +25 SP
Quicken Spell: +10 SP
Heighten Spell: Special (Changes base cost of your spell to that of your highest level spells)

These cost increases are cumulative if multiple metamagic feats are active simultaneously, so a Quickened, Maximized, Enlarged Fireball would cost:
20 (base) + 10 (Quicken) + 25 (Maximize) + 10 (Enlarge) = 65 Spell Points

Improved Metamagic enhancements have all been changed to flat cost reductions on these surcharges. Sorcerer Improved Maximizing III, for instance, has become "Using the Maximize Spell feat costs you 9 fewer spell points." Wizard Improved Heightening II is now "Using the Heighten Spell feat costs you 2 fewer spell points per level of heightening."

Discuss...

[redoubt]

Seems a mixed back at first glance.

Lets see:

MM is a 10sp spell right? Old way maximise was 30sp, now 35.
Firewall I think is 25. Old way is 75 and new is 50...
Disentigrate is 35. Old: 105, new 60... wow.

Just don't max MM and kill everything! :D

Now, I'm not sure if -9sp is worth taking all 3 enhancements in impr max. If it turns out to be -9 for each level of it, the it would be a very righteous enchancement, though I highly doubt it would be that good.

'Course for charmers nothing has changed... Heighten away. I just hope the cost of the charms w/improved heighten is not going up.

One thing that worries me though... what in fernia are they adding to the game that they are allowing us this much more firepower???

[blaten22]

Seems a mixed back at first glance.

Lets see:

MM is a 10sp spell right? Old way maximise was 30sp, now 35.
Firewall I think is 25. Old way is 75 and new is 50...
Disentigrate is 35. Old: 105, new 60... wow.

Just don't max MM and kill everything! :D

Now, I'm not sure if -9sp is worth taking all 3 enhancements in impr max. If it turns out to be -9 for each level of it, the it would be a very righteous enchancement, though I highly doubt it would be that good.

'Course for charmers nothing has changed... Heighten away. I just hope the cost of the charms w/improved heighten is not going up.

One thing that worries me though... what in fernia are they adding to the game that they are allowing us this much more firepower???

Thats easy *just pulling out of my hat of opinions* Look at the 2 spells you just mention'ed.

Firewall, Disentigrate...Undead...Deadly combo in the right hands. Have feeling with this new content coming out lightning spec casters will see some love as well. Know with some undead in the game lightning is very effecitve against them.

Again just my 2cp...continue with the discussion :P

[Alavatar]

It also looks like Extended L1 and L2 spells will cost more, Extended L3 spells will be the same, and L4 and up will have an increasing discount.

Now, that old Max+Emp+Ext Wall of Fire that cost 113 SP will only cost 75 SP.

At least they made Eschew Materials a little more useful.

[redoubt]

doh... meant to start new thread... :(

[jkm]

wow, they normally don't want to hurt low level casters, but it looks like the new system does that in spades. in a way, i guess it makes sense as the higher level you are the more control you would have over the process, but still. seems they'd revisit the AoE spells to be similar.

[DemonMage]

Most low level casters aren't going to be using much metamagic, except maybe Extend, which hurts a lot on 1st level spells, very little on 2nd, and is same/better beyond that. They probably should change it, but we'll see.

[smodge13]

wow, empowered healing will be so much more useful now though

[Deragoth]

I'm pretty excited about it. Damage spells are back in force :D.

Empowered/Extended/Maximized Firewall...

15 + 10 + 25 + 25 = 75sp. Nice

2 levels of Enhancements...

11 + 10 + 19 + 25 = 65sp. Ok, that's cool.

Empower/Heightened/Maximized Cone of cold...

15 + 40 + 25 = 80sp. Wasn't this like 170sp before?

So, for 2 levels of enhancements on all...

11 + 36 + 19 = 66SP. Considering the damage potential, that's not bad at all. Holy ****!

[jkm]

extend:

1st level -> massive nerf as it is now the same spell cost to extend or not (current 15 spell points, new 20 sps)
2nd level -> less benefit (current 22sp now 25sp)
3rd level -> breakeven current 30 spell points, now 30 spell points
4th level -> current 38 spell points new 35 points
5th level -> current 45 spell points new 40 spell points
6th level -> current 53 spell points new 45 spell points
7th level -> current 60 spell points new 50 spell points

verdict -

from a buff standpoint this is a nerf since most of the useful buff spells at high levels are 1st and 2nd level. about the only buff spell that gains a huge benefit is greater hero.

from an offensive perspective, it decreases the spell cost of a ton of length based spells (firewall, ck, hold monster, mass hold person, charms, symbols, fire shield). so in that case this is a massive boon for the offensive caster.

[jkm]

empower +15 sps

1st level = before 20 now 25
2nd level = before 30 now 30
3rd level = before 40 now 35
4th level = before 50 now 40
5th level = before 60 now 45
6th level = before 70 now 50
7th level = before 80 now 55

interesting that the breakeven is on scorching ray. big boost to higher level damage spells.

prev empower cone of cold -> 14d6 * 1.5 = 73.5/60 = 1.222
now empower cone of cold -> 14d6 * 1.5 = 73.5/45 = 1.63 dam/sp

wow, 33% gain in damage/spell point

maximize +25 sps
1st level = before 30 now 35
2nd level = before 45 now 40
3rd level = before 60 now 45
4th level = before 75 now 50
5th level = before 90 now 55
6th level = before 105 now 60
7th level = before 120 now 65

wow, huge boon to maximize

prev max cone of cold -> 14d6 * 2 = 98/90 = 1.09
now max cone of cold -> 14d6 * 2 = 98/55 = 1.78 dam/sp

okay, this is crazy. maximize becomes more mana efficient at high levels than empower. huge argument to drop it for something else. has to be a mistake...

[Deragoth]

okay, this is crazy. maximize becomes more mana efficient at high levels than empower. huge argument to drop it for something else. has to be a mistake...

Jebus man! Quiet down... :D

[Alavatar]

okay, this is crazy. maximize becomes more mana efficient at high levels than empower. huge argument to drop it for something else. has to be a mistake...

More reason to have both Maximize and Empower, especially for spells L4 and above.

L4 base SP cost - > 25 SP

Double damage via Maximize - > 25 SP.

Double the cost, double the damage.

Cone of Cold old SP cost (Max + Emp) = 30 * (1 + 2 + 1) = 120 SP
Cone of Cold new SP cost (Max + Emp) = 30 + 25 + 15 = 70 SP

So, for Cone of Cold, you get +1.5x damage for +1.33x SP cost.

[Vilmos]

For those interested, the enhancement modifications are:

Enlarge, Quicken, Empower Healing
-1, -2, -4

Empower
-2, -4, -6

Maximize:
-3, -6, -9

Heighten: There are only 2 levels on enhancement currently and it costs 4 and 6 AP
-1/level of addition, -2/level of addition

For those inquiring minds that wanted to know.

[Varis]

******, I just dressed for work and now I have to change my pants...


my nuke spec sorc will LOVE this change.

[jkm]

More reason to have both Maximize and Empower, especially for spells L4 and above.

L4 base SP cost - > 25 SP

Double damage via Maximize - > 25 SP.

Double the cost, double the damage.

Cone of Cold old SP cost (Max + Emp) = 30 * (1 + 2 + 1) = 120 SP
Cone of Cold new SP cost (Max + Emp) = 30 + 25 + 15 = 70 SP

So, for Cone of Cold, you get +1.5x damage for +1.33x SP cost.

i think the error is that maximize should be 30 spell points instead of 25 (2x empower).

[Aspenor]

I think it's PEERRRRRRRFECT!!!!

/maniacal laughter and wringing of hands

[jkm]

with it being 25 instead of 30, the enhancements for maximize pay off a ton, especially if you've pulled a +3 cha tome and have that extra 6 points to bring it down to 16 points (a maximized fireball for 36 spell points? wow). heck, it might even be worth dropping the top level of dragonblood for it.

[Tallyn]

i think the error is that maximize should be 30 spell points instead of 25 (2x empower).

Hmm, no, what they are doing is bringing the spells in line with PnP kind of. Check it out


DDO
Empower Spell: +15 SP (Equivalent of casting a 2nd level spell)
Empower Healing Spell: +10 SP (Equivalent of casting a 1st level spell)
Enlarge Spell: +10 SP (Equivalent of casting a 1st level spell)
Extend Spell: +10 SP (Equivalent of casting a 1st level spell)
Maximize Spell: +25 SP (Equivalent of casting a 4th level spell)
Quicken Spell: +10 SP (Equivalent of casting a 2nd level spell)
Eschew Materials: +2 SP

Pen and Paper
Empower Spell: uses up a spell slot two levels higher than the spell’s actual level
Enlarge Spell: uses up a spell slot one levels higher than the spell’s actual level
Extend Spell: uses up a spell slot one levels highe than the spell’s actual level
Maximize Spell: uses up a spell slot four levels higher than the spell’s actual level


I'm going off base SRD here, so not sure how much empower healing ups the level of a spell, but I'm guessing it is one level.

They decreased the cost of quicken spell from pen and paper, since it is of much less benefit in DDO than it is in PnP. And they added a small cost to eschew materials. Unless it works for all materials components including the non standard more expensive ones, I'm not sure why they added the small sp cost, I consider a feat enough of a cost for eschew to work

[Deragoth]

Now that you mention it, Tallyn, I think you nailed it. Good eye.

[jkm]

Hmm, no, what they are doing is bringing the spells in line with PnP kind of. Check it out


DDO
Empower Spell: +15 SP (Equivalent of casting a 2nd level spell)
Empower Healing Spell: +10 SP (Equivalent of casting a 1st level spell)
Enlarge Spell: +10 SP (Equivalent of casting a 1st level spell)
Extend Spell: +10 SP (Equivalent of casting a 1st level spell)
Maximize Spell: +25 SP (Equivalent of casting a 4th level spell)
Quicken Spell: +10 SP (Equivalent of casting a 2nd level spell)
Eschew Materials: +2 SP

Pen and Paper
Empower Spell: uses up a spell slot two levels higher than the spell’s actual level
Enlarge Spell: uses up a spell slot one levels higher than the spell’s actual level
Extend Spell: uses up a spell slot one levels highe than the spell’s actual level
Maximize Spell: uses up a spell slot four levels higher than the spell’s actual level


I'm going off base SRD here, so not sure how much empower healing ups the level of a spell, but I'm guessing it is one level.

They decreased the cost of quicken spell from pen and paper, since it is of much less benefit in DDO than it is in PnP. And they added a small cost to eschew materials. Unless it works for all materials components including the non standard more expensive ones, I'm not sure why they added the small sp cost, I consider a feat enough of a cost for eschew to work

yeah, there formulas is as follows:

mpower (spell levels increased x 2) + 5 = 15
maximize (spell levels increased x 4) +5 = 25

the problem is that initial +5, it generates some serious efficiencies for maximize over empower. if you are only going to take one, before empower was more mana efficient, now maximize is more efficient by a huge margin.

[Tallyn]

Definitely, if it was true to Pen and Paper the values would be:

Empower Spell: +10 SP
Empower Healing Spell: +5 SP
Enlarge Spell: +5 SP
Extend Spell: +5 SP
Maximize Spell: +20 SP
Quicken Spell: +20 SP
Eschew Materials: +0 SP


Going from a level 1 spell to a level 2 spell in reality should be +5 SP. However I guess for balance purposes (maybe?) they opted to tack on addition 5 SP cost. Also if they had stayed with the 4 levels for quicken spell as in PNP it would have been useless. As it is, I still dont see anyone taking Quicken Spell. I'm not sure I know anyone that has taken Eschew materials either.

[Borror0]

I think that the additionnal +5 SP comes the fact that using Metamagics feats are less costy in DDO than in PnP. In DDO you can Empower+Maximise a level 7 spell, which you couldn't in PnP. Also, if you do Maximise a Fireball in PnP, you loose one level 7 spell, which you don't in DDO.

Is that clear, I suck at explanation today. :p

[redoubt]

For those interested, the enhancement modifications are:

Enlarge, Quicken, Empower Healing
-1, -2, -4

Empower
-2, -4, -6

Maximize:
-3, -6, -9

Heighten: There are only 2 levels on enhancement currently and it costs 4 and 6 AP
-1/level of addition, -2/level of addition
For those inquiring minds that wanted to know.


Hmmm...

Current PK heighten w/improved 3 (-20%) is 35sp - 7 = 28.
New is 35sp - 6 = 29. (up 3 levels = -6)

Current hold monster w/improved 3 is 35sp - 7 = 28
New is 35sp - 4 = 31. (up 2 levels = -4)

Am I goofing up the math here?

[Xenaphon]

with the new system there is no point in NOT using maximize and empower at higher levels. It would cost more SP to cast 2 level 5 damage spells than to use 1 level 5 spell with maximize. Is this good or bad? I guess this really helps nukers. In some ways I think DDO is trying to even out the abilities of Casters VS Melee, but they have gone overboard. Melee are getting left behind. With all the high level spells, well built melee is no longer high priority in many of the quests (like POP).

[jkm]

Hmmm...

Current PK heighten w/improved 3 (-20%) is 35sp - 7 = 28.
New is 35sp - 6 = 29. (up 3 levels = -6)

Current hold monster w/improved 3 is 35sp - 7 = 28
New is 35sp - 4 = 31. (up 2 levels = -4)

Am I goofing up the math here?

well the only problem is that currently metamagic discounts only affect the base cost of spells. thus they were pretty much useless (i did take 2 heighten levels). so a 25 point pk with 3 levels was actually only a 5 point discount instead of 4 (it was 36 instead of 34).

[Deragoth]

with the new system there is no point in NOT using maximize and empower at higher levels. It would cost more SP to cast 2 level 5 damage spells than to use 1 level 5 spell with maximize. Is this good or bad? I guess this really helps nukers. In some ways I think DDO is trying to even out the abilities of Casters VS Melee, but they have gone overboard. Melee are getting left behind. With all the high level spells, well built melee is no longer high priority in many of the quests (like POP).

I don't think melee classes are being left behind. My kopesh weilding fighter with a 32 STR hits very hard. Back up if I turn on power attack and grab a Greater bane greataxe. Sure, sometimes it turns into guard duty and aggro management at L14... But it's like that in PnP too.

[Tallyn]

Pardon me for Necroing a few week old thread, but I just looked at the PHB and Maximize is a modification of 3 spell levels so, to keep it in line with PNP the DDO SP modification should be +20 SP. Of course, they may have already taken this into account and decided maximizes power warranted the increased SP cost of +25.

[Shade]

Pardon me for Necroing a few week old thread, but I just looked at the PHB and Maximize is a modification of 3 spell levels so, to keep it in line with PNP the DDO SP modification should be +20 SP. Of course, they may have already taken this into account and decided maximizes power warranted the increased SP cost of +25.

Ya think?

Maximize isn't even close to the same in PnP as in DDO. If it was no one would even consider taking it, empower would be king.

Hell everyone automatically gets 50% of the benefit of mazimize (pnp version) for free without taking the feat in DDO.

[ErgonomicCat]

Edit:

Nothing to see here. Realized I hadn't read page two.

Where's my coffee?

[lherndo]

This means a whole SLEW of the new monsters (and maybe some of the old ones) are going to have all of those hated immunities that we saw in Madstone and Gianthold Tor.:mad:

[Shade]

This means a whole SLEW of the new monsters (and maybe some of the old ones) are going to have all of those hated immunities that we saw in Madstone and Gianthold Tor.:mad:
Oh no?

Er madstone mobs aren't imune to very much, nothing important comes to mind.

Tor giants have deathward.. Big deal, everything else still works. I run with deathward on 99% of the time, mobs should figure its a good idea by now too.

[redoubt]

Tor giants are also immune to hold & charm.