Pure DPS Build - Fighter

[Maldini]

The Weapon Master

Level 14 Human Fighter

Stats:
Strength: 18 +3 (@ Levels 4, 8 and 12)
Dexterity: 14
Constitution: 16 (1750 Favor Build)
Intelligence: 8
Wisdom: 8
Charisma: 8

Maxxed Stats:
Strength: 18 +3 (Levels) +6 (Dragon Belt) +2 (Fighter's Strength II) +2 (Rage Spell) +2 (Tome) +1 (Human Adaptability Strength I) = 34 Max or +12 Modifier
Dexterity: 14 +6 (Item) +2 (Tome) = 22 or +6 Modifier
Constitution: 16 +5 (Item) +2 (Tome) +2 (Rage) +1 (Human Adaptabilty Constitution I) = 26 or +8 Modifier

Feats:
Level 1: Weapon Focus: Slashing, Weapon Focus: Bludgeoning, Power Attack
Level 2: Two Handed Fighting
Level 3: Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Khopesh
Level 4: Weapon Specialization: Slashing
Level 5: -
Level 6: Weapon Specialization: Bludgeoning, Improved Two Handed Fighting
Level 7: -
Level 8: Improved Critical: Slashing
Level 9: Improved Critical: Bludgeoning
Level 10: Greater Wepon Focus: Slashing
Level 11: -
Level 12: Greater Weapon Focus: Bludgeoning, Greater Two Handed Fighting
Level 13: -
Level 14: Greater Weapon Specialization: Slashing

NOTE: You can also take the piercing route instead of bludgeoning if you like to use Heavy Picks. You'll do some nice damage on a crit with a Heavy Pick.



Enhancements (Points):
Fighter Critical Accuracy I (1)
Fighter Strategy Trip I (2)
Fighter Strength I (4)
Fighter Item Defense I (5)
Fighter Haste Boost I (6)
Human Improved Recovery I (8)
Fighter Flanking Mastery I (10)
Fighter Critical Accuracy II (12)
Fighter Armor Mastery I (14)
Fighter Haste Boost II (16)
Fighter Strength II (20)
Fighter Armor Mastery II (24)
Human Adaptability Strength I (26)
Fighter Flanking Mastery II (30)
Fighter Haste Boost III (33)
Fighter Critical Accuracy III (36)
Fighter Haste Boost IV (40)
Fighter Critical Accuracy IV (44)
Fighter Extra Action Boost I (46)
Fighter Tower Shield Mastery I (48)
Fighter Extra Action Boost II (52)
Human Adaptability Constitution I (56)


What This Build Is:
This build is a pure weapon master, offensive juggernaut. It was designed to be on par with my Barbarian build as far as DPS goes. This build is very versatile as far as weapons are concerned and seeks to achieve the highest Attack and Damage scores over a wide range of weapons. That is why both Slashing and Bludgeoning weapons are included in this build. Slashing weapons include 13 weapon types and Bludgeoning includes 10 weapon types for a grand total of 23 weapons. Improved Recovery III was taken in those instances where you don't have a main tank in the group and you will inevitably generate a huge amount of aggro.


What This Build Is Not:
This build is not a high save, defensive or hybrid build, so don't try to argue that point. I have a high DPS build already in my Barbarian and an extremely high defensive build in my 7 Fighter/3 Paladin, so I understand the importance of both. This build is designed around being the best at what it does: DPS.


DPS Breakdown (At Max Potential):

Attack:
+14 BAB
+5 Weapon
+12 Strength
+2 Flanking Mastery II
+2 Greater Weapon Focus (Slashing/Bludgeoning)

Total:
+35 (Slashing/Bludgeoning) - Unbuffed and Flanking
+30 (Slashing/Bludgeoning) with Power Attack - Unbuffed and Flanking

Attack numbers can go up using outside buffs and self buffs. So in addition to this you can add +1 from Haste, +8 from Bard Songs, +1/+2 from Luck Bonus, +1/+2 from Greater Bane Weapons, mid 40's without power attack on and low 40's with it on. That's pretty impressive.

Damage:
+5 Weapon
+12 Strength (One-Hander)/+18 (Two-Hander)
+2 Weapon Specialization (Slashing and Blugeoning)
+2 Greater Weapon Specialization (Slashing)

Total:
+21/+27 (One-Hander/Two-Hander Slashing) - Unbuffed
+19/+25 (One-Hander/Two-Hander Bludgeoning) - Unbuffed
+26/+37 (One-Hander/Two-Hander Slashing) with Power Attack - Unbuffed
+24/+35 (One-Hander/Two-Hander Bludgeoning) with Power Attack - Unbuffed

NOTE: Numbers can only go up from there with the various buffs.

[AsianWolfman]

Any suggestions on enhansments if I use this for a dwarf?

[Maldini]

Any suggestions on enhansments if I use this for a dwarf?

Con, Armor Mastery maybe if you can afford it and Axe Damage.

[Cold_Stele]

Hey bud, to help rebuild your thread I'll post my 2c worth -

Your Pure DPS Fighter build can easily keep pace with Barbarians if played well. Last night I was (at level 11) just 5 kills behind a Barb 14 with SOS.

Back in the day when you posted this build being Slashing and Bludgeoning specced made a lot of sense. Uber weapon drops were rare and you never knew what you were going to end up with.

Nowadays, when you can basically buy or trade for anything you want (Vorpals, Banishers, etc) on the AH that makes less sense. Previously you'd change from GreatAxe to Maul when fighting skellies, these days you just pull out a Disrupter. Whilst there's still some benefit in being specced for both - dropping one line will free up four feats which could be used to dramatically increase DPS (I'll come to these later).

Con 16 is obviously very desirable, but Int 8 toons are just plain unpleasant to play IMO. I've found that any DPS toon needs the following skills -

1 rank Tumble, thereafter take Spot (I hate playing a melee without Spot!!!)
Max Balance and Jump obviously
Max Intimidate - this really works well for DPS now it's instant effect and you can (almost) start swing immediately after activating. You can just pull the mobs back to you rather than chase them if the arcanes pull aggro from you.
Max UMD - debatable as you're never going to work miracles with it, but at level 11 you can UMD RR +6 stat items.

I personally would advocate the loss of 28 HP (but you're going to replace these with Toughness and Ftr's Toughness Enhancement) and go with a starting Int and Con of 13, then eat an Int tome at character generation for Int 14.

Optionally you could sacrifice only 14 HP and go with Con 14 Int 12 (and again eat Int tome).

The 4 feats that I'd then take are -

Combat Expertise - you of all people know the value of this - when the chips are down you can't DPS when you're dead! It also adds a lot of versatility to a toon.
Improved Trip - this is arguably *the* most important feat for increasing DPS, particularly for a TWF or THF toon. It's a lot easier to go all out offence when the mobs laying flat on it's face.
Toughness - claws back 17 of the 28 HP lost by lowering starting Con, even before you take Ftr's Toughness.

And then one of -

Toughness (again)
Cleave
Skill Focus - UMD
Stunning Blow (for Bludgeoning specced Dwarves).

To summarise then I'd say that for the loss 9 HP (Ftr's Toughness IV could actually net +11 HP though) and access to Slashing AND Bludgeoning spec (only one of which you can use at any one time) you increase DPS through better skills (all the above mentioned help you fight better in one way or another) and with extra feats like Imp Trip you will take less damage, keep the Cleric happy and be able to concentrate more on offence.

[Blazer]

How does this...


Combat Expertise - you of all people know the value of this - when the chips are down you can't DPS when you're dead! It also adds a lot of versatility to a toon.

...jive with this?


This build is not a high save, defensive or hybrid build, so don't try to argue that point. This build is designed around being the best at what it does: DPS.

[AsianWolfman]

Thanks guys. I will keep those in mind as I play the char.

p.s. why do you guys call them toons? back in the day of pen and paper we just called them charactors. ooh well but that is off topic.

[Cold_Stele]

How does this...

...jive with this?

Combat Expertise is a prerequisite for Imp Trip.

As stated, Imp Trip is essential for a DPS TWF or THF toon. If you're up against two mobs who are raining blows on you and you can trip one, you've succesfully halved the damage you're receiving. If you're not worrying about incoming damage you can concentrate all out on offense.

If you never PUG, if you always run with a guildie Cleric and dedicated Intimi-Tank, maybe that isn't important. For everyone else, it is.

As for CE itself though 99% of the time you'll not run with it on. Some people advocate switching from PA to CE whilst THF when they're taking too much damage. As activating a Shield clicky cancels CE I'm not a great fan. When the environment's particularly hostile, when I have a bad (or no) PUG Cleric or when I'm soloing I personally switch to Khopesh and HS with PA.

That 1% of the time you do use CE though is when it really matters, when you have 5 (or even 11) other players depending on you - times like when you're dragging the party's stones to the shrine or when you're running the pillars in VON 6. Hell, you could even turtle up and Intimi-Tank if that's your thing, just don't expect to make you're saving throws.

What do you actually lose by making these changes? I'd suggest nothing. What do you gain? Increased HP, DPS, survivability and flexibility.

[Blazer]

Not sure I made my point clear enough. Maldini's Weapon Master is to be just that, a master of weapons (though no piercing it seems). It's a DPS build, he even stated it's not a defensive or hybrid build. So by dropping all the bludgeoning feats (less weapon mastery now), lowering CON, boosting INT, taking CE and Improved Trip, you are now shifting the original intention of the build. It seems you're trying to move the build from a Weapon Master to a DPS hybrid with a smattering of tactics who can turtle up if needed. That wasn't Maldini's intention, I'm not sure why you're trying to make it so.

Also, I would take a stand against your belief that Improved Trip is "essential" for THF/TWF build. I see plenty of THF/TWF barbs, rangers, and fighters who do silly DPS without Improved Trip. I don't think running with a guild cleric or intimitank is necessary with this build; simply running with *any* sort of CC character will help. Besides, Mal's build will end up with 32 STR unraged and un-Madstone raged. Couple that with the Fighter Trip I enhancement he took and I think he'll be able to trip pretty well. I know I do pretty decently on my fighter/paladin and she's got 30 STR and 2-3 ranks in Fighter's Trip.

[Cold_Stele]

Maldini's Weapon Master is to be just that, a master of weapons (though no piercing it seems). It's a DPS build, he even stated it's not a defensive or hybrid build. So by dropping all the bludgeoning feats (less weapon mastery now), lowering CON, boosting INT, taking CE and Improved Trip, you are now shifting the original intention of the build.

OK firstly let's clarify that there is no intention in the changes I suggest for this build to *ever* turtle up - I said that CE will only ever be on 1% of the time.

As for Mal's original intention of the build, which I must stress I hold in the highest regard, only he can answer that. My belief was that it was pure DPS, an 'offensive juggernaught'. Speccing Slashing AND Bludgeoning was, I think, the way he achieved that goal, not the goal itself. As I recall it was called The Pure DPS Build for a long time and he didn't change the name to Weapon Master until much later - just look at the (uneditable) thread title.

The game has now (quite sadly I often think) moved on and every build out there needs to adapt or become redundant.

When this build was first conceived we had a level 10 cap and vorpals and other uber weapons were unbelievably rare. The AH hadn't even be conceived. There was a genuine need to be versatile with regard to weapons as you had to make what little you had go a long way. I almost sold my soul back then for a +2 Shocking Burst Bastard Sword.

Given the abundance of loot now I'd argue that there is no longer the need to spec in Slashing and Bludgeoning. Even if you do, given that you can only use one weapon at a time, you've always got four redundant feats.

Each and every suggestion I make is intended to augment Maldini's pure DPS design concept and create said 'offensive juggernaught'. Each point I raise is from my practical experience with the build, not from theoretical assumptions about how I think it could be improved.

Which brings us back to Imp Trip - I'd replace redundant feats with ones which will be in constant use - I spam Imp Trip every 10 seconds. The original build also lacks Toughness and Ftr's Toughness, something which almost every new Fighter build posted is advocating given the game now favoring higher HP.

I don't debate that the original build will have success with regular trip although obviously with a slower cooldown timer, but given the importance of getting it off succesfully (I still get far less than 100% success) I still stand by Imp Trip.

I know you state you think any CC will help but, as I said, I actually play this build. You generate a hell of a lot of aggro and you need some mechanism for personally mitigating that. Sure you may see some characters generate sick DPS, how often are they dying though, or how much SP are they sucking up?

Lastly I'd say this - please point out to me how any of the changes I suggest will not result in better DPS.

[Blazer]

OK firstly let's clarify that there is no intention in the changes I suggest for this build to *ever* turtle up...


Hell, you could even turtle up and Intimi-Tank if that's your thing, just don't expect to make you're saving throws.

Well, even if you personally wouldn't turtle up, you did suggest it. ;)


The original build also lacks Toughness and Ftr's Toughness, something which almost every new Fighter build posted is advocating given the game now favoring higher HP.

Agreed here, Toughness is the feat of choice these days with the enhancement changes. I had it on my pure pally before there were any enhancements and loved it. Any fighter/paladin/(dwarven) ranger should definitely invest it in. Toughness with some enhancements more than makes up for the loss of the 14 HP (20 by proposed endgame).


I know you state you think any CC will help but, please believe me, I actually play this build. You generate a hell of a lot of aggro and you need some mechanism for personally mitigating that. Sure you may see some characters generate sick DPS, how often are they dying though, or how much SP are they sucking up?

I need to make a distinction between any CC and good CC. Also, as the melee in question you obviously need to be aware of what CC is being used and how to best operate within it. Fascinate and Hypno pattern means be careful with that 2 hander please. Greater Command means go to town on anything that's on the ground. If stuff is well CC'd, SP isn't being sucked up. This depends on the group you are with, as do all builds I suppose.


Lastly I'd say this - please point out to me how any of the changes I suggest will not result in better DPS.

It would be antagonistic of me to simply point out that in the 1% of the time you have CE on, your to-hit is dropped by 5, meaning more missed attacks, thereby resulting in less DPS. This change alone means you are putting out less damage, even if it is a small amount of the time.

Regardless of that minor point, I do like some of the changes you have suggested, Toughness especially. I also like the idea, however, of being both Blunt and Slash spec'ed since there will be more and more mobs that are either immune or essentially immune to the special effects you suggested (vorpal, but we already see that; disruption, banishment, etc). Or even worse yet, more and more things that are (well neigh) immune to trip/stunning blow.

In these cases DPS will be important and having the ability to switch between slashing and bludgeoning and not see a dramatic drop-off in DPS (SOS not withstanding) can make a difference.

[Cold_Stele]

It would be antagonistic of me to simply point out that in the 1% of the time you have CE on, your to-hit is dropped by 5, meaning more missed attacks, thereby resulting in less DPS. This change alone means you are putting out less damage, even if it is a small amount of the time.

Lol, yes - I do think you're laboring that point a little much :)

What I actually said was -


That 1% of the time you do use CE though is when it really matters, when you have 5 (or even 11) other players depending on you - times like when you're dragging the party's stones to the shrine or when you're running the pillars in VON 6. Hell, you could even turtle up and Intimi-Tank if that's your thing, just don't expect to make you're saving throws.


Anyhow, it's actually not the -5 from CE that reduces your DPS as the other 99% of the time you're going to run around with PA on - it's the loss of the +10 damage from PA that reduces DPS. Regardless, I either don't swing at anything when I have CE up, or not having CE up will mean a party wipe and loss of DPS is a moot point.


I also like the idea, however, of being both Blunt and Slash spec'ed since there will be more and more mobs that are either immune or essentially immune to the special effects you suggested (vorpal, but we already see that; disruption, banishment, etc). Or even worse yet, more and more things that are (well neigh) immune to trip/stunning blow.

In these cases DPS will be important and having the ability to switch between slashing and bludgeoning and not see a dramatic drop-off in DPS (SOS not withstanding) can make a difference.

For a Slashing specced toon the mobs that immediatly spring to mind that you are going to do less DPS on than a Bludgeon specced toon are -

1. Skellies if you don't have or they're resisting Disruption, or named skellies you can't Disrupt
2. Rusties and Oozes (BFD :) )
3. Outsiders as you can't Banish BUT Imp Crit - Pierce and a Banishing rapier will beat Imp Crit - Bludgeon hands down
(on Elite and maybe Hard it's probably quicker to just DPS than Banish anyway though)
4. Clay Golems if you don't have a Smiting weapon.

I'd suggest that it's not worth spending four feats on just the above (if taking different weapon types appeals to you though I'd definitely recommend Imp Crit - Pierce). If you can think of four other feats that are going to give you better DPS, well then there's your answer. If Imp Trip's not your thing what about Cleave, Great Cleave and/or Stunning Blow?

One very important point is that you could always just spec Bludgeon and ignore Slashing altogether (a lot of people have posted on the advantages of Bludgeoning weapons - each hit has a small chance of causing a stun effect, for example). The only special effect you'll miss out on is vorpal but no way would a high DPS build like this rely on vorpal anyway.

And very lastly - don't forget the Transmuting special effect that's just been introduced - allowing you to bypass any DR that's bypassable. Could be another nail in the coffin for speccing both styles.

[WeiQuinn]

Once Half-Elf is released, I was planning on rolling up a Fighter/Paladin/Ranger
that was specced out as a Slash/Bludgeon/Two Handed Fighter!

The one level of Ranger is for Favored Enemy: Undead.

Obviously, the three Paladin levels are for the class feats.

I've been saving Bastard Swords and Greataxes for this character. I may forgoe the Bludgeoning line in lieu of other feats or more Ranger/Paladin levels.

I could drop the Bludgeoning line and go Fighter 12/Paladin 3/Ranger 5 or
Fighter 12/Paladin 6/Ranger2.

I tend to play Rangers, but I've not played a Paladin yet. Althought I do like the Save progression of the Ranger the best of all the Full BAB classes.

Looks like I have plenty of time to mull this over...

[Shade]

Your Pure DPS Fighter build can easily keep pace with Barbarians if played well. Last night I was (at level 11) just 5 kills behind a Barb 14 with SOS.


So the barbarian sucked. Allot of them do. Ive personally grouped with 10+ lvl14 Barbs with raid gear like SoS that pretty much only rage for boss fights, and even then often forget on those too.. Which results in them being a gimped fighter.

But no, fighters can not keep pace for dmg with a barbarian, in absolutely no cases, not even a versatile blunt and slash one like this one. The game is just not set up like that.

Maximum Dmg comparison:
Ftr:
Max Str (everything possible except 30 sec potions):
Strength: 18 +3 (Levels) +6 (Item) +3 (Fighter's Strength III) +2 (Rage Spell) +3 (Tome) +1 (Human Adaptability Strength I) + 4 (Dual madstone rage)
= 40, +15 mod, or +22 DMG
Feats: Greater wep spec + Power Attack= +14 DMG
Weapon: SoS = 2D6 +5, 15-20 X3 (Imp Crit) + Bloodstone

Total: 2D6 +41 15-20 X3 = 43 - 53, or 177 max crit.

Barb (Worth noting one could be Dwarf with no str loss and +2 axe dmg, as axes beat out SoS in some cases):
Max Str
Strength: 18 +3 (Levels) +6 (Item) +10 (Power Greater Rage IV) +2 (Rage Spell) +3 (Tome) + 4 (Dual madstone rage)
=46, +18 mod, or +24 DMG
Feats: Power Attack III +16 DMG
Weapon: SoS = 2D6 +5, 13-20 X3 (Imp Crit, Crit Rage II) + Bloodstone
Total: 2D6 +45 13-20 x3 47 - 57 or 189 max crit, critting more often the fighter

Or vs mobs vuln to Bludge:
Ftr:
Same dmg: +36 + weapon
+5 Greater XXX Maul (Skeleton or Razor cat all i can think of)
= 1D10 + 45 19-20 x3 (Impr Crit)
Barb:
Same dmg: +40 + weapon
+5 Greater XXX Maul
= 1D10 +49 18-20 x3 (No impr crit, but crit rage II)

Definetely still a good DPS build, but a fair margin behind on crit vulnerable mobs. Vs non critables like skeleton, its only 4 dmg per hit behind so not a big deal at all. Fighters haste boost could even it out a bit, but by the same token barbarians can take dmg boost which is only slightly less of a DPS boost, would probably equal out DPS wise on crit imune mobs, tho still be a fair bit behind on crit vuln mobs.

Main advantage this build has over a barbarian is ability to use clickies whenever and Kopesh feat for more variety (chaosblades are awesome)
But loses out on: DPS, Tanking (Lower HP/DR/Saves), Skill points and run speed.

[Cold_Stele]

So the barbarian sucked. Allot of them do.

Nah, he was probably a good player - I'm just better ;)



But no, fighters can not keep pace for dmg with a barbarian, in absolutely no cases.

Absolutely no cases? Just because no one you group with may out-DPS you personally, doesn't mean that the same is true of all your class.

The changes in the enhancement system give Dwarven Barbarians the edge right now, as does the state of the current game favoring HP over AC.

If the gulf between the melees was as wide as you claim then the entire DDO community would have taken notice and be rerolling Dwarven Barbarians, just like (nearly) all the arcanes rerolled as Drow Sorcerors. This clearly isn't the case.

Having said that I'm not sure why you'd come on the Fighter forum to post this. Seems kind of like a Sorceror posting on the Wizard forum to say he's got more SP and can cast spells faster?

[Hokonoso]

I perfer to go only one weapon type (2hs or khopesh or 2hb) then use a transmuting weapon when fighting mobs that resist you that way you can get the same dps and more versatility with your feats.

[D'rin]

The critical rage enhancements are the main reason barbs get such a huge advantage over fighters in dps right now. If they add and enhancement for fighters or make mobs have heavy fort it is going to change the dynamic a great deal. As for now barbs have a big advantage over fighters.

[Maldini]

I perfer to go only one weapon type (2hs or khopesh or 2hb) then use a transmuting weapon when fighting mobs that resist you that way you can get the same dps and more versatility with your feats.


That is true. This build was designed long before Transmuting weapons came out. The only reason to really keep two weapon specs is because Transmuting is a prefix and you can't get the bursting transmuters. Though you could theoretically get Tramuting Greater Banes.

It's just nice to fine a good bludgeoning or even Piercing weapon and being reassured that you'll do some nice DPS with them both.

BTW Piercing a nice way to go. Take Improved Crit Piercing and watch the damage you can do with Heavy Picks.

[LeslieWest_GuitarGod]

I have built a dwarf version of this build and went with every Maldini recommendation, minus one. I took one less bludgeoning feat and took toughness. Also, I rerolled my enhancements to include fighter toughness and he went up appx 100 hit points! What did lose? I will lose greater weapon spec. bludgeoning and improved trip.

I loved the idea of going trip but even with max strength and a +10 trip item, i just wasnt tripping enough for my satisfaction.

You dont want to mess with this build, just roll it like you see it. You wantt o still spec both, because greater banes do massive danage... and for dwarves, forget trip, go toughness and con and axe damage and armor mastery if u have room.

I almost always am far and away the leader in kills. Sometimes a two weapon ranger catches me but thats about it. Barbarians? Rarely. Level 12 and still dominating. Thank you Maldini for building the best!

[KoboldKiller]

I'm curious as to why you would take Khopesh and then all the two-handed lines? Was there not something else that would have been better in there? I ask because it looks like you are making a great sword or great axe build due to the aforementioned two-handed lines.

[Shade]

I'm curious as to why you would take Khopesh and then all the two-handed lines? Was there not something else that would have been better in there? I ask because it looks like you are making a great sword or great axe build due to the aforementioned two-handed lines.

Like the class video says: The fighter is the best all-around melee combatant.

Versatility is the fighters main strength, so to capitalize on that by being able to use a very large selection of weapons makes sense. Obviously if you don't have any good khopesh, don't take it.. But if you pick up a chaosblades, get it for sure. Also make sure ya go chaotic for those.

[XFracture]

I say screw imp trip and just stick with trip. the +4 DC just isn't worth wasting a feat on CE especially if you never plan on using CE to begin with. And the whole "extended" trip time is null when mobs drop faster than a hat to begin with.

Just me though.

[Scalion]

The absolute only way I can imagine making a fighter build that can keep up with dps in some extent to a barbarian is to go TWF rather than THF. The extended crit range makes the barbarian much better with a 2 hander no matter what you do.

There are quite a few reasons for fighters to go the TWF route and it caters to fighter's strengths.

1. Fighters get better +1 to hit than barbs due to imp weapon focus
2. Specialization and greater specialization add +2 to damage, each...this applies to every attack so the more attacks the better.
3. Power Attack also adds equally to damage by every attack.

This means a two weapon using fighter has an additional +9 to each of the 7 attacks per round in addition to the strength bonuses and actual weapon damage. With a 2 hander you do get a bigger strength bonus, and even better power attack bonuse, but your specialization and greater specialization isn't optimized because you have 3 less attacks per round. (I know this game isn't exactly round based, but we're still talking about more attacks in less time).

My friend tells me the main difference between his two handed fighter and two handed barbarian is that the fighter hits more often while the barbarian hits much much harder. He also said he likes his fighter but he can do everything faster and safer on his barbarian. (barbarian has more HP, better saves, bigger crit range, runs faster, has DR, etc)

[Cold_Stele]

The absolute only way I can imagine making a fighter build that can keep up with dps in some extent to a barbarian is to go TWF rather than THF.

Not sure I want to get into the Fighter v Barbarian thing but TWF v THF? Here's my thoughts -

1. TWF does similar DPS to THF as currently 7 weaker hits do similar DPS to 4 stronger ones. Now that mobs with DR are more prevalent (some of which is not bypassable), THF wins against these every time.

2. It's relatively easy to carry one greater bane 2H weapon of each type (think I carry 13 or so) but there isn't the inventory or weapon slot space to be that versatile with dual wielding.

3. Aiming for a high base Dex for TWF means you are going to have to make sacrifices elsewhere in stats.

4. The big advantage TWF had over THF was stat damage, disruption, smiting, etc. This is less important now that mob saves and resistances are increasing. I don't see anyone who relies on smiting/disruption in the 4 Orchard quests for example.

5. The future of TWF is very, very uncertain. At BAB 15 we (may) get another attack in the chain - for TWF to keep up with THF there will have to be another TWF feat implemented - no one knows if they will do this or what the minimum Dex requirement will be.

I personally had a capped TWF but rerolled to THF, it's just a safer bet and arguably the better choice anyway.

[Scalion]

Not sure I want to get into the Fighter v Barbarian thing but TWF v THF? Here's my thoughts -

1. TWF does similar DPS to THF as currently 7 weaker hits do similar DPS to 4 stronger ones. Now that mobs with DR are more prevalent (some of which is not bypassable), THF wins against these every time.

2. It's relatively easy to carry one greater bane 2H weapon of each type (think I carry 13 or so) but there isn't the inventory or weapon slot space to be that versatile with dual wielding.

3. Aiming for a high base Dex for TWF means you are going to have to make sacrifices elsewhere in stats.

4. The big advantage TWF had over THF was stat damage, disruption, smiting, etc. This is less important now that mob saves and resistances are increasing. I don't see anyone who relies on smiting/disruption in the 4 Orchard quests for example.

5. The future of TWF is very, very uncertain. At BAB 15 we (may) get another attack in the chain - for TWF to keep up with THF there will have to be another TWF feat implemented - no one knows if they will do this or what the minimum Dex requirement will be.

I personally had a capped TWF but rerolled to THF, it's just a safer bet and arguably the better choice anyway.

I agree with you in terms of damage reduction. If you cannot get past the damage reduction then obviously the harder hits are preferable.

The Dex isn't such a difficult number to obtain, start with 16 and eat a +1 tome and you're good for all current feats. I believe PnP requires a 19 base dex for Superior TWF so it would then require a +3 tome with a 16 base dex, but that's not terribly unreasonable considering they would be more available as content raises in level.

To me, if you want to dps a two handed melee the crit range on a barb beats anything on a fighter hands down. If more and more things continue to be non crittable then fighters will indeed gain an edge in the two handed with the extra feats.

[Cold_Stele]

I believe PnP requires a 19 base dex for Superior TWF

There is no Superior TWF in PnP.

In PnP you get an extra attack at BAB 6, 11 and 16 giving a total of 4 per round.

In DDO, if the scale progresses, we'll get a total of 5 attacks 'per round', with extras at 5,10, 15 and 20 - 1 extra.

PnP TWF caps out at 7 attacks per round before level 20. Perfect TWF (available at Epic levels) had a base Dex requirement of 25 and gives the same number of attacks with the off-hand as the main (which in PnP = 4).

So if the BAB attacks progress TWF is going to fall one attack short.

So, like I said, will they invent a feat? what will the base Dex be? No one knows.

That's a little too uncertainty for a toon for my liking...

[Scalion]

There is no Superior TWF in PnP.

In PnP you get an extra attack at BAB 6, 11 and 16 giving a total of 4 per round.

In DDO, if the scale progresses, we'll get a total of 5 attacks 'per round', with extras at 5,10, 15 and 20 - 1 extra.

PnP TWF caps out at 7 attacks per round before level 20. Perfect TWF (available at Epic levels) had a base Dex requirement of 25 and gives the same number of attacks with the off-hand as the main (which in PnP = 4).

So if the BAB attacks progress TWF is going to fall one attack short.

So, like I said, will they invent a feat? what will the base Dex be? No one knows.

That's a little too uncertainty for a toon for my liking...

I guess that's my punishment for reading here for knowledge about pnp rules, lol.

It's definately not outlandish to hope for some kind of upgrade to TWF mechanics as things progress. Many of the feats in DDO are quite different from pnp. Cleave and great cleave are good examples of this.

[LeslieWest_GuitarGod]

With 100% respect for Maldini's fighter build, I rolled up a dwarven variant. The goal was to keep intact the Weapon Master reputation, in fact keep just about EVERYTHING intact, but somehow build into it the advantages to Con that dwarves get. I will not brag that this is better than Maldini's build, after all its core is 100% Maldini. One last thing, I will assume NO RAID LOOT...

"The Stout" Weapon Master Dwarf Fighter 32 Point Build
Level 14
Lawful Good

Starting Stats:
Strength: 18
Dexterity: 14
Constitution:18
Intelligence: 8
Wisdom: 8
Charisma: 6

Skills:
Balance and Jump

Enhancement Points:
Fighter Haste Boost I
Dwarven Armor Mastery I
Dwarven Axe Damage I
Dwarven Constitution I, II
Dwarven Toughness I, II, III, IV
Fighter Critical Accuracy I, II, III, IV
Fighter Flanking Mastery I, II
Fighter Item Defense I
Fighter Strength I, II, III
Fighter Toughness I, II, III

Note: You can take these enhancements in any order you like, but do know that you should take any toughness enhancements as soon as they are available to you, to maximize the extra hitpoints you will recieve through leveling your toon.

Feats:
Level 1: Weapon Focus: Slashing, Toughness
Level 2: Two Handed Fighting
Level 3: Power Attack
Level 4: Weapon Focus: Bludgeoning
Level 5: -
Level 6: Weapon Specialization: Slashing, Improved Two Handed Fighting
Level 7: -
Level 8: Weapon Specialization: Bludgeoning
Level 9: Improved Critical: Slashing
Level 10: Improved Critical: Bludgeoning
Level 11: -
Level 12: Greater Weapon Focus: Slashing, Greater Weapon Focus: Bludgeoning
Level 13: -
Level 14: Greater Two Handed Fighting

The DPS breakdown is either the same or very similar to the original Maldini build. The only difference is choosing to drop Greater Weapon Specialization: Slashing. (You can drop Greater Weapon Focus: Bludgeoning and take Greater Weapon Specialization: Slashing) With a Con 5 Item your hit points should be 368, and with a greater false life item 398, without a single raid item on! Your CON will be 27, not too shabby (of course you could swallow a +1 Con tome to get you up to 28 if you can find/buy one) Strength will sit at a 32 with a +2 Strength Tome and a + 6 Strength item. With a 28 strength, this toon was constantly getting top kill count in all parties, with the only exceptions being your occasional smartly built caster or TWF. In many more cases than not, this build will out-DPS TWF's, even smartly built ones.

Strategies with this build:
Your biggest pluses: HUGE DPS, WIDE variety of weapon choices.
Your biggest minus: Will Saves. (Get the Nightforge Darkhelm as your Ore Run item. Ads Wisdom +2 AND Will Saves +5, cant beat it and its a guaranteed "find")

---> This Dwarf can use WEAPONS, so this is where you need to focus on. The Stout One needs to search high and low, or buy whatever greater bane weapons he can lay his fingers on. Elemental greater bane weapons are best, and remember that a +3 greater bane weapon is actually a +7 vs that monster type!! With some savvy at the auction houses, you can purchase most of your greater bane weapon set without ever having to worry about finding that elusive vorpal. By the way, I outkill most vorpal users. Remember your greatest strengths... VARIETY. Hook up with as many situational weapons as you can and you will not need to worry about rolling a 20... EVER.

---> Your ability to stand in a doorway and haste-boost makes you an invaluable member when you need to create that choke point and your caster has no more mana for haste left.

---> Be sure to locate a Heavy Fort item, Protection item, and Adamantine armor, and you are one Well Rounded "Stout" dwarf!