Endgame is creeping into Vorpal-mania

[Plynx]

With the escalation of hp, ac, attack bonus on endgame elite mobs, the game has started to become about what instakill weapons you bring to the table and less about your character class or play style.

I just want to say, it's extremely discouraging and makes the game a lot less fun to play for me.

They remove the satisfaction from many fights, they just end--maybe now, maybe later. They remove meaning from your class and combat style--it's you're playing a new class "vorpal wielder." It skews builds towards getting more attacks in, making more attempts at a 20 or whatever instakill ability is relevant. It makes dps builds without the uber weapons mere meat shields waiting for someone else's wonder weapon to go off. In short, it leads to an annoying, cheap-feeling and cheesy gameplay--much the same as firewalling and cloudkilling stupid mobs behind a gate.

I'm not complaining that people do it, because as the game currently is, it's SMART. With many of these elite mobs, it's the most effective/efficient route.

So far it's just a problem with the little tip at the end of the game. Hopefully it will be recognized as a problem and addressed?

[scorn_the_infallible]

vorpals do not work on red - purple so dps is still important .... sometimes ..... but not like it used to be.

[blah77]

Vorpal is over-rated as a full time weapon, period. Whenever I see someone using vorpal for everything in a quest, I just shake my head. A good DPS build will still out-kill a full time vorpal wielder in most high level quests, normal or elite. This is especially true if you play with a regular partner in which both of you are DPS builds. One such example would be a strength based DPS TWF fighter with focuses on stunning/trip and a strength based DPS rogue with all the sneak attack bonuses. The majority of elite mobs in the game right now will go down within 3-4 seconds with this duo (except those immune to sneak attacks of course) if not faster. On the other hand, what are the chances that a full time vorpal wielder will be able to roll a 20 in that 3-4 seconds?

[Wulf_Ratbane]

Vorpal ain't all that. It is definitely over-rated. It's great for... well, the vampire and the marilith in PoP (and even against the marilith it's just a convenience).

Any other time you're better off with consistent big dps weapons.

Besides which, as anyone who plays D&D knows, the end-game is ALL ABOUT instant-death effects.

It's just usually a spellcaster doing it. Most spells from 5th level on up are designed to kill the opponent on a single failed saving throw.

Levels 1-10, all about the melee, with spellcasters for support.
Levels 11-20, all about the spellcasters, with melee for support.

That's just the way it is.

[Mad_Bombardier]

Vorpal ain't all that. It is definitely over-rated. It's great for... well, the vampire and the marilith in PoP (and even against the marilith it's just a convenience).

Any other time you're better off with consistent big dps weapons.

Besides which, as anyone who plays D&D knows, the end-game is ALL ABOUT instant-death effects. <snip> That's just the way it is.I will add one small note that finessable Vorpals turns the high DEX TWF into a killing machine that draws no aggro. Vorpal is the new Wounding. (But, good luck finding a Vorpal Sickle, Handaxe, Kukri, or Kama.) ;)

[Elleron]

I have to agree with wulf, at higher levels the dps goes to the mages. Inst-killing is an art form. In so much that are guild is talking about sorcerer raiding parties.

I run a sorcerer and plenty of other things, so if they kill them as I get there no big deal to me, because I didn't take any damage either. Kill counts dont really matter except for "trash talking", if the quest is a success then I don't care if I had 100 kills or 1. Though I would be upset with 0.

Inst-killn helps out the whole group, 25-35 sp for one death, much better than the cleric running out of sp, because he is constantly healing the dps melee machine and the mage who ran in too close.

[Shade]

Vorpal is just a clutch for poorly build character or just poorly skilled players to fall back on.

To think its the most efficient way to do a high level quest is very sad indeed. You really need to find some good melee to group with. If anyone in my groups is using a vorpal in high leveel groups they are generally not invited to my group again in the future. Even extreme hp mobs like the vampire i can kill with DPS faster then 3 other melee can manage to vorpal it. Its just too sad when I get 5x the kills of the so called uber fighter with max attack bonus and a bloodstone trying to vorpal stuff when i consistantly kill the highest hp mobs in no time at all.
I carry a vorpal.. I think i tried swining it once when i got it and got frustrated when i killed so slowly.. It hasn't taken a single point of durability dmg, thats how often I used it since i got it months ago.

The endgame needs DPS builds, proper ones. Otherwise you can cheese your way thru them slowly with vorpal, but your really wasting your time. Youd be better off rerolling.

[Mad_Bombardier]

Vorpal is just a clutch for poorly build character or just poorly skilled players to fall back on.

<snip>

but your really wasting your time. You'd be better off rerolling.It's ok Shade; don't hold back. Tell us what you really think! :p

[moorewr]

Well, like the poster above said - you really want one vorpal (and a disrupter) for POP. It's also nice to have one paralyzer in the group, and one curse-spewing. The rest is DPS burst weapons and insta-kill spells.

Most high-level content doesn't give you the breathing room that POP gives you. Madstone for instance - buff like crazy at the entrance, CC spells, DPs, go! I love that first fight, because CC always falls apart and there's enough mobs that everyone has a random initial aggro chasing them around. I have a habit of dying there. :)

The question is whether the primary melees should be using those weapons. I say give the rogues and casters the special low-damage weapons. I often find my cleric swinging a curse-spewer at red names and hoping I wont get noticed. I also carry a banisher and a paralyzer. The weapon I use the least is my shock holy burst, which is my DPS. After all, I wont hit very often no matter what I'm swinging.







Vorpal is just a clutch for poorly build character or just poorly skilled players to fall back on.

To think its the most efficient way to do a high level quest is very sad indeed. You really need to find some good melee to group with. If anyone in my groups is using a vorpal in high leveel groups they are generally not invited to my group again in the future. Even extreme hp mobs like the vampire i can kill with DPS faster then 3 other melee can manage to vorpal it. Its just too sad when I get 5x the kills of the so called uber fighter with max attack bonus and a bloodstone trying to vorpal stuff when i consistantly kill the highest hp mobs in no time at all.
I carry a vorpal.. I think i tried swining it once when i got it and got frustrated when i killed so slowly.. It hasn't taken a single point of durability dmg, thats how often I used it since i got it months ago.

The endgame needs DPS builds, proper ones. Otherwise you can cheese your way thru them slowly with vorpal, but your really wasting your time. Youd be better off rerolling.

[OKCRandy1]

I've been wanting a vorpal since they came out, I've looted all but one loot weekend and I still don't have a vorpal. I'd like to make the argument that perhaps there isn't as much escalation as you think.

[AEschyl]

i'd like to see a vorpal-wielder out kill my double-shocking-burst-rapiers-of-puncturing combination...

and yes, at end game... D&D is all about save or die, save or die, save or die

have fun with your ac/hitpoint builds while they last :D

[Hendrik]

Vorpal is a tool. Just like any tool, when properly used can be a great asset to the project at hand.

[Bombalo]

Well if the hold 6man is any indication of what is to come vorpals will soon be useless as is since it seems that the devs are compensating by giving lots of mobs deathward/block which stops the vorpal and disruption effects.

[EightyFour]

With the escalation of hp, ac, attack bonus on endgame elite mobs, the game has started to become about what instakill weapons you bring to the table and less about your character class or play style.

I just want to say, it's extremely discouraging and makes the game a lot less fun to play for me.

They remove the satisfaction from many fights, they just end--maybe now, maybe later. They remove meaning from your class and combat style--it's you're playing a new class "vorpal wielder." It skews builds towards getting more attacks in, making more attempts at a 20 or whatever instakill ability is relevant. It makes dps builds without the uber weapons mere meat shields waiting for someone else's wonder weapon to go off. In short, it leads to an annoying, cheap-feeling and cheesy gameplay--much the same as firewalling and cloudkilling stupid mobs behind a gate.

I'm not complaining that people do it, because as the game currently is, it's SMART. With many of these elite mobs, it's the most effective/efficient route.

So far it's just a problem with the little tip at the end of the game. Hopefully it will be recognized as a problem and addressed?

QFT tell I get my vorpal. I would at least like to get one before someone decides to consider you're opinion something to consider at all.

[linaewen]

vorpal is nice for a melee bard or a rogue, a real tank should go DPS 90% of the time and switch to vorpal for situational fights.

that s what I do and it works great.

[Boulderun]

Khopesh TWF'ers can use a vorpal as their main weapon and still rack up nearly as much damage as SoS monsters like me. Obviously the real problem here is that khopeshes need nerfing. :D

[Jaywade]

vorps are overrated, also the fact that so many people have one is clearly way off base, are there more out there sure, but I know lots of players that have a multi capped toon's that don't have one..... I finnaly got one (just recently) I only use it in the 2 rooms in pop like everyone else....

[Kethir]

Agree with OP. When you have 2-3 vorpal wielders of 4 melees, then dps really is just acting as an aggro holder while the vorpals kill.

My comment is don't rely on kill counts so much, and come to grips with high level questing. At high levels, the fighters grab and hold the monster while the casters kill them. That is the way its supposed to be (in D&D), if the fighter is needed at all.

But you're right. Its annoying when the other fighters aren't playing by the same rules, and you're left holding the bag - which while a necessary job, not any of the same old glory as pre mod 4

[Plynx]

Thanks to everyone for sharing their observations that vorpals are currently a situational weapon and overrated as a full-time weapon.

The point I am trying to make is that vorpals and their ilk are a superior weapon choice for some of the endgame mobs who fit the description "difficult to kill with damage". I am worried that this is part of a progression in the game that will ultimately make the game a lot less fun to play.

Some are talking about the relative prevalence of vorpals--trying to assure me that there aren't as many out there as I think. I didn't comment on how many people have them--it makes no difference. I can say that if vorpals become an increasingly effective weapon choice, then the fewer there are, the more of a problem there is.

Some of you bring casters and instakill spells into it--but I missed the parallel you were trying to make.

"x level D&D is all about y": I do hear a lot about what D&D is "supposed to be about" at different levels from lots of different people--I'm a long time D&D player, and I've never found these simplistic statements to have merit. But I won't argue the point, everyone has their own take on the spirit of D&D. I will say: spellcasters in DDO are radically different starting with spell points (so the same PnP checks on balanced spell usage aren't there) and Turbine is obviously still tinkering with it.

Those of you on about your own builds and strategies being better than an unspecified build with vorpals--sure. But this is just a simple question of where the game is going. At least one of you recognizes the power of builds centered around such weapons--and I would hate to see the game skew in that direction as it progresses.

Thanks for your comment, Bombalo--if that's what Turbine's plan is, then I feel better already. I generally have faith in the developers' ability to keep the game enjoyable!

[Neferi]

One problem with vorpals is exactly what Kethir wrote. Vorpals don't contribute much in the way of dps, and so the ranger dual-wielding them isn't going to have to do anything but concentrate on the perfect build for vorpal swinging, while the other people are forced to tank, whether they're melee, casters, or healers. It's frustrating to be a damage dealer and find that you're just about to kill the mob that's been really hurting you and sucking up the cleric's heals, when someone's vorpal goes off. Then you feel like you wasted all the damage you put out, plus the cleric's spell points, and really accomplished nothing because all you really did was tank, and ultimately, why not pull out a shield and just stand there uselessly while the vorpal guy tries to get a lucky roll?

The issue here isn't always the people using vorpals. I can totally understand the need to have one because some of the encounters are pretty tedious without it. The vampire in pop with his ridiculous regeneration and his running around the room constantly make it an annoying fight if all you have is dps. I'm all for pulling out a vorpal or disruptor on him. It's fine that vorpals have their place, but there shouldn't be a lot of situations where a vorpal is clearly the best thing, because then you end up feeling like why not make a build entirely around dual wielding vorpals and just be the vorpal carrier? I like the weapon switching aspects of being a fighter, I love to carry many weapons to pull out the one best suited to an encounter, but if it's always going to be a vorpal, why bother with being a fighter at all? Why not make my build specifically to dual-wield vorpals at high speed? Why doesn't everyone?

As for what groups should and shouldn't do in high level encounters, there are a lot of theories floating around, but what I've *observed* is that in a good group, everyone supports each other. The casters make it easy for the melee to do their job, and the melee in turn do the same for the casters. The same should be true for vorpals. In some places where it's useful to have one, it's worked into the strategy, and seen as just another useful tool, not pulled out against every single mob. Unfortunately, it's become more than just a weapon choice, it's starting to feel like a requirement against more and more mobs.

The way things are now, vorpals are clearly better in some fights. People are always asking "who has a vorpal?" when we do elite content, because having a vorpal is more important there than what build you are and what you can do. This kind of gameplay isn't fun, and I hope it gets addressed soon.

[Riddikulus]

i'd like to see a vorpal-wielder out kill my double-shocking-burst-rapiers-of-puncturing combination...
Sure... meet you in the vamp room in PoP. :D

Vorpals may not be good main weapons, but for the vamp in PoP nothing can beat a vorpal or a disruptor, and certainly your puncturers are going to do zilch against him.

[Luthen]

I have to say that regardless of what arguments are made... Vorpals have just become far to common. My first instinct is to vote in favor of more Vorpals. The whole feal of "Ooohhh.... I got something special" does that. Then, however, the knowlege that Vorpals are becomming so common that everyone can end up with one eventually. When you think of a Vorpal in PnP terms you have a few rolls in a combat setting. In DDO you have 20-50 rolls depending on build, and monster and such. That's alot of extra chances for a roll of 20.

Not to mention that with the strengths attainable these days (30-36 max which = God level) the chance to confirm a critical roll is also through the roof. Long story short... it's silly. I do have a friend who had a TWF build using 2 Vorpals. He stopped eventually because he said it just wasn't fun or a challenge. He's built and played some of the best fighter builds and is great at it so I'll take his word.

[Aspenor]

IMHO the dependancy on vorpals is only in certain parties, which happens to be the type of party where the players have bad builds and poor tactics, the spell-casters are inadequate, and clerics stink at healing.

A well-prepared and well-built party has no problem DPSing through any quest in just as much if not less time than a fighter-heavy party wielding all vorpals.

[boldarblood]

Vorpal is very situational. Any melee person who uses vorpal most of the time needs it as a crutch for there character, 99/100 times dps is the way to go. It's not even needed in the vampire room of pop, Flesh to Stone, drop a firewall, scorching ray, silver or greater undead bane weapon He will go down very fast.


I do have a friend who had a TWF build using 2 Vorpals. He stopped eventually because he said it just wasn't fun or a challenge. He's built and played some of the best fighter builds and is great at it so I'll take his word.

I have a character dual wielding vorpals also when needed. It's much more efficient to pull out high dps weapons and take a monster down. Everyone remmbers that 1 swing vorp, they forget the much more common 30 swing non-vorp. DPS>>>Vorpal.

[boldarblood]

The point I am trying to make is that vorpals and their ilk are a superior weapon choice for some of the endgame mobs who fit the description "difficult to kill with damage". I am worried that this is part of a progression in the game that will ultimately make the game a lot less fun to play.
!


Only 1-2 mobs in the entire game are they superior, and even that is debateable.

[EightyFour]

The problem is there is still a lot of thought out there that a vorpal weapon is the holy grail of weapons in D&D, well in 2nd edition and players option they were, because if you rolled a 20, you would critical hit, in 3.0 and 3.5 this is not the case, you have to roll a 20 and than make an additional roll to make sure you hit.

Also +5 weapons were looked upon by many as a great weapon to have, mainly because it allowed more hits and more damage, now you throw +5 to hit with +5 to damage and add an auto kill feature on a 20, that's a nice weapon to have, there were few other weapons in 2nd addition that could compare.

So it made a reputation.

Now in the world of 3.5 it is not as powerful as it once was and there are other weapons that can rival it or even beat it.

But the reputation has stayed because it's still a good weapon, but it's no longer a great weapon and deff. not the holy grail of weapons.

So stop thinking of vorpal as being the end all to all weapons. FoD is still better than a vorpal. And give up the idea that vorpals are all that great.

[Serverdown]

I have never been a fan of vorpals because well, they're garbage. Most of the time they don't work until the mob is just about dead, sometimes before, however they do have their uses. The only time I use vorpal is against high ac, high DR mobs like jarliths, and half of the time not even then.

Honestly if you want to look at the overpowered unskilled weapon, take a look at wounding of puncturing weapons with high crit ranges.

[Kethir]

You guys can bad mouth vorpals all you want, but the truth of the matter is as OP says, and Luthen who mentioned his buddy quit using his vorpals because it wasn't any fun or challenge.

Vorpals rock. And any party with a lot of vorpals is gimped. Why? Because a rocking party is one with 5 sorcerors and 1 cleric. Hence the part about a good balanced group making vorpals unnecessary? A good balanced group doesn't use vorpals because its got all casters. Duh! Any party with more than 2 fighters is definately not as good as a party with 2 fighters 3 sorceror and 1 cleric. As OP mentioned, 2 fighters cannot hold aggro with vorpals. Anyway, I'm going a couple diff directions here, but vorpals are VERY good. And with the more hit points coming our way (I got to imagine even more hit points in the future), we can expect more vorpals to be used.

But more on point, what OP says is that vorpals rob fun from the have nots, since while a group can go all vorpal, if one guy can't, all he does is grab aggro for everyone else and let them get the kills. My thought? That is the role of the tank. Whats wrong with that? No it wasn't a voluntary choice. My counterpoint? Every fighter at high levels is a tank. Or rather a pawn, like in chess. He's there to busy the enemy while the heavy guns take care of the fight.

If you want to look at an overpowered weapon, look at the cleric, wizard and sorceror classes at level 13+ (14+ for sorceror).

[Morgoth_the_Enemy]

IMHO the dependancy on vorpals is only in certain parties, which happens to be the type of party where the players have bad builds and poor tactics, the spell-casters are inadequate, and clerics stink at healing.

A well-prepared and well-built party has no problem DPSing through any quest in just as much if not less time than a fighter-heavy party wielding all vorpals.

Spell casters inadequate? Heh, the reverse is true. With all of the casters I routinely group with, a vorpal allows me to have a chance at killing things before the caster notices it and Fingers / PKs it. I have a feeling every group will become like this as levels increase.

And vorpals aren't good DPS? Tell that to my guildy with his +3 Vorpal Greataxe of Righteousness.


FoD is still better than a vorpal.

You're right. Tanks should give up vorpals and just start casting Finger of Death instead.

[Paladin20]

I fully agree with Plynx, in many situations it's just the SMARTER thing to do... even Orange bosses on elite have an insane amount of HP, many have Regen or mad DR, also with a haste and in a party with multiple vorpals, it's a matter of seconds before somebody rolls a 20... What should be done is THEY SHOULD STOP TALLYING INDIVIDUAL KILL COUNTS. Think about it... it's skewed to begin with; all you need to do is get the last hit in (easily accomplished if you do 1 of the 3: camp behind the mob and time the last swing, have a rogue with 7 attacks/round to go with all that sneak dmg, or be on of those kser caster who waits until the mob is at 10% health and casts a PK). Doing it this way discourages people going into these mad vorpal hunts during loot weekends since getting the most kills becomes pretty much irrelevant unless you're some maniac who keeps count even through 200 monsters killed (now everybody has a fighter so that they can get the slashing weapons on end reward tables), and promotes team effort as a unit-- meaning the GROUP slew 200 mobs in a combined, coherent effort, instead of "Fighter X killed 117 of those monsters and look at you, you silly Ranger Y who only got 13 kills". Casters will have no real reason whatsoever to throw an empowered maximized fireball at a regular mob who's at 15% health, and the success of the character will be determined by how they contribute to the overall smoothness of a quest run. If that were ever done, vorpals wouldn't be nearly as coveted. Vorpal weapons should be that once in a million kind of deal that most people only hear about, few see, and even fewer possess. In the current game, it's like a good aged bottle of expensive wine, if you look around enough for it and are lucky you'll eventually find it, or if you pay the price for it you can have it. Just my 2 cp.

[baflin_haverstaff]

My fighter dual weilds a +1 vorpal dwarven axe of backstabing and a +1 para handaxe. In simple mob fights it's ok but you still end up half the time banging away at a target till you either vorpal it or just take it's hp away. I switch it up. I like using my greater bane weps when I can. But it's always fun to get the insta kills, and in PvP vorpaling your best buddies with one hit is priceless. I've had 2 vorpals since the game came out. Sure they aren't as rare as they used to be, and they are overrated. Once you get one, after a while it's kinda like meh. I think banishers are a bit cooler.:p

[barecm]

I have the feeling that the trend will be for monsters to become more resistant to vorpals ect... like the reaver pre-raid quest. This is an unfortunate side effect from all the excessive amount of uber loot pulled during the loot weekends we keep having.

[Swordalot]

I'll start right off saying I don't have a vorpal and as such am bitterly biased against them.
But even if I had one, I'd still Disrupt the Vampire. Him rolling a 1 happens more often, on average, than my rolling a 20 and confirming it. 1 roll is better than 2.
Even on trash mobs, I'll take my Seeker +10 khopesh, thank you. 90+ damage with power attack on and 50+ AC, every 25% of the time? 220+ on Smite Evil crits? Yes please.

Vorpal is not the end-all-be-all. But people think it is. Even though I tend to play a non-turtling intimi-tank (CE ftw!), I still like to get swings off and wipe stuff out. It annoys me to no end when I have an enemy down halfway and some Johnny Vorpal comes over and beheads it and celebrates over voice chat. Bull. That one was mine to get the satisfaction of slaying. I'll admit it; I like the feeling I get from ending my enemies' lives. That feeling goes away when I almost succeed but get turned into a damage sponge while Johnny swings away.

I support Vorpal-guard on new mobs. Or more normal-sized undead.
But don't give 'em deathblock completely. Then what can my wizzie do?
Oh, right. Flesh to Stone and go to town with dual puncturers.

[Mizyrlou]

As much as I'd love to have a vorpal kama for my fighter, it's not going to make or break her if she ever gets one or not. Between trading and pulls, she's currently got every other flavour of them save vorpal and that's fine with me.

Usually I'm running her with either the cursespitter/paralyser or the paralyser/weakening-enfeebler combos and while it's easy to steal kills from her, she's great at softening the mobs so the casters can more effectively FoD/PK or Destruction.

I do concur that vorpals are nice, but if the rolls aren't there, you're just swinging away while I'm the one whittling the mobs down faster.

[Shecky]

My fighter dual weilds a +1 vorpal dwarven axe of backstabing and a +1 para handaxe.

Just a thought here - have you thought about pairing vorpal with seeker, paralyzing/banishing/disruption with cursespewer? Anything that raises crit confirmation for vorpal or raises DC/lowers saves for save-based weapons is a great offhand for a two-weapon combatant. If I ran a TWF melee, I'd be pantingly eager to get all those together.

[Riddikulus]

Just a thought here - have you thought about pairing vorpal with seeker
Or bloodstone.


paralyzing/banishing/disruption with cursespewer? Anything that raises crit confirmation for vorpal or raises DC/lowers saves for save-based weapons is a great offhand for a two-weapon combatant. If I ran a TWF melee, I'd be pantingly eager to get all those together.
Maybe it's just me but I've found that cursespewing pretty much never lands in gianthold quests on elite.

[apollojuly]

I find a vorpal has increased appeal many times I run solo. My battle cleric can crank up a high to hit with divine favor and divine strength, but just doesn't deal massive damage with each swing.

[akla_thornfist]

ive run test to compare vorpal with all my other weapons, bursters, greater bane you name it. the vorpal wins hands down, so to say they are situational or a crutch is nonsense. on elite content or normal i will use my vorpal dwarven axe 60% of the time i switch up just so the weapons take less damage. so to those of you that say a vorpal is a crutch for a bad build i say hogwash. dont like them dont use them!

[Shecky]

Or bloodstone.


Maybe it's just me but I've found that cursespewing pretty much never lands in gianthold quests on elite.

That's odd - my experience has been otherwise; i.e., if your rolls don't absolutely blow chunks (which mine have been known to do on occasion), it should land every couple of shots. The funniest thing is when one person's cursespewing and another is (or others are) disrupting in Madstone - you see savesavesavesavesave, about a hundredth of a second of that black cursed cloud and then *SHOOM!*. Green fadeout. So pretty much the moment cursespewing hits, boom goes disruption. :)

[Ziggy]

Id rather run with my +5 acid greatclub, then my +2 vorpal greataxe. MInd you i do use it occasionally, but my main weapon is the +5 acid.

[Aspenor]

I don't really care what the vorpal fans say.

My +5 holy dwarven axe of pure good hacks through mobs faster than a vorpal, 90% of the time. I use the vorpal on high hit point/DR/regenerating/healer-mobs. If I know a room is full of a bunch of cleric-type mobs that will spam-cast heal on themselves, the vorpal is what is in my hand.

Any other time, the +5 holy PG is more reliable than begging for that 20.

[Shecky]

I don't really care what the vorpal fans say.

My +5 holy dwarven axe of pure good hacks through mobs faster than a vorpal, 90% of the time. I use the vorpal on high hit point/DR/regenerating/healer-mobs. If I know a room is full of a bunch of cleric-type mobs that will spam-cast heal on themselves, the vorpal is what is in my hand.

Any other time, the +5 holy PG is more reliable than begging for that 20.

Me, I like my +2 Holy Burst Adamantine Scimitar of Righteousness (main) or +4 Shocking Burst Battleaxe (off-main). PA + Trip/Stunning Blow = unspeakable things done to enemy at hand. :D But I'm with you on the vorpal - situationally, it bypasses a LOT of annoyance.

[DaGSO]

The Giant hold pre-raid does what it needs to, but sounded like a broken speaking stone. Mix it up. Allow some to be vorpalled, but not all. Actually, have this added to the lower mobs as well.

This will stop the instant kills. Death block works against vorpal as well as it should work against negative effects, level drain, and stat damamge drain.

[Impaqt]

Seems to me there are a Lot of people that dont have Vorpals.....

Fact is.. They are a Blast to use...... Can I DPS a Mob to death? Of course... But WHen I see that Flash of Blue and the Mob crumples to the ground.... Ahhhh... Good Times.......
Running the Twilight forge... bout 5 of us had vorpals.... At one point we had like 3-4 simultaneous..... now that was entertaining.......

Thre really no reason to EVER fail your Confirm roll..... 1 is NOT an auto fail.... Feats, ENhancments, Seeker Items and Weapons in your off hand...... Do what ya can to confirm that blue flash.....

So to the folks that are bashing vorpals in this thread and dont have one, I wish you luck in your rolls....

For the ones that Have em and still bash em... Is the game fun for ya still?

[captain1]

With the escalation of hp, ac, attack bonus on endgame elite mobs, the game has started to become about what instakill weapons you bring to the table and less about your character class or play style.

I just want to say, it's extremely discouraging and makes the game a lot less fun to play for me.

They remove the satisfaction from many fights, they just end--maybe now, maybe later. They remove meaning from your class and combat style--it's you're playing a new class "vorpal wielder." It skews builds towards getting more attacks in, making more attempts at a 20 or whatever instakill ability is relevant. It makes dps builds without the uber weapons mere meat shields waiting for someone else's wonder weapon to go off. In short, it leads to an annoying, cheap-feeling and cheesy gameplay--much the same as firewalling and cloudkilling stupid mobs behind a gate.

I'm not complaining that people do it, because as the game currently is, it's SMART. With many of these elite mobs, it's the most effective/efficient route.

So far it's just a problem with the little tip at the end of the game. Hopefully it will be recognized as a problem and addressed?


AGREED.......its the reason why I quite/took a break from the game the 1st time. I try not to run gianthold quests sticking to low and mid levels so I can actually enjoy the dynamics of combat.

I think gianthold is geared more towards the WOW type player. I like most of the ideas in gianthold but mob attack values and DPS/ immunities / hit points need to be balanced a little better IMO (I didnt say easy..I said balanced)


*also If my post seems weird or out of place...I just now stumbled on this thread, I only read the OP and 2-3 posts after it....so I dont know where the topic is at this point*

[akla_thornfist]

if i had a +5 holy dwarven of pg id use it, thing is more folks have vorpals then +5 holy weapon.

[EightyFour]

You're right. Tanks should give up vorpals and just start casting Finger of Death instead.

How long you been playing this game? Tanks don't cast FoD, that's why they use the watered down version of a vorpal.

[Jaywade]

imo vorps as a whole are not great main weapons, can't use them on rednames, vs trash mobs you are wasting your time, here's what might work though
dwarven barb/fighter 12/2
42 str when rageing, power attack, 2 handed and improved 2 handed fighing, improved crit slash, dwarven axe enchancements, confrim crit enchancement, improve crit barb enchancement

with all though and a +1 vorp great axe it might be viable as a main weapon

unless my math is wrong w/ power attack while rage is on your have a +33 to hit (+37 to comfirm crits) and damage would be 1 d 12 + ???? 21 from str +2 from dwarven enhancements +5 from power attack and then you mutiply for the 2 handed feats I think X2 right? if so it would be 1 d 12 + 56 ) so at least 50 points on a swing the neat part is a crit on a 18 (improved crit and the barb enchancement) so 50 points of damage a swing and on a 18 or 19 a possible 200 hit crit and a 20 just dead, that would be viable as a every fight weapon except the bosses

[Aspenor]

Me, I like my +2 Holy Burst Adamantine Scimitar of Righteousness (main)

Where on EARTH did you get THAT from, Shecky? :) :p

[Shecky]

Where on EARTH did you get THAT from, Shecky? :) :p

Dear me, my memory seems to be faltering... *looks shifty*

It's a good 'un, that's for sure - found out just how useful it is in a PoP run over the weekend when I forgot to switch to my mace of smiting. Not only does adamantine cut through his DR, but he's also EEEEEEEBUUUUUULLLLLLL and takes a whoopin' from the holy burst.

Despite the fact that I'm collecting some pretty serious DPS one-handers, I still use the vorpal in quests where you don't get a whole lot of swings on the target like:

1) there's something that skitters all over the place like a squirrel on speed (PoP vamp, for example, although I still prefer the disruptor for that jerk, 'cause he has to not roll a 1 on ANY swing, but if I'm feeling lucky, the vorpal comes out),
2) stuff will constantly knock you down (e.g., Demon Queen's ******** baby cousin in PoP) or
3) there's a BIG pile of critters roundin' the corner and they keep themselves nicely bottlenecked for a cleave / great cleave. ;) If I fire off both of those, it's pretty much a given that a couple will go blooey.

[Strumpoo]

Vorpal is just a clutch for poorly build character or just poorly skilled players to fall back on.

Yep not the end all be all weapon there are much better ones out there

If anyone in my groups is using a vorpal in high leveel groups they are generally not invited to my group again in the future. Even extreme hp mobs like the vampire i can kill with DPS faster then 3 other melee can manage to vorpal it.

Find this hard to believe...Especially the part about not inviting them back. Come on...;)


The endgame needs DPS builds, proper ones. Otherwise you can cheese your way thru them slowly with vorpal, but your really wasting your time. Youd be better off rerolling.

Don't know about rerolling, but I agree they aren't the end all weapon in the game. They used to be, but not since they have been "corrected".

[WolfSpirit]

{snip}Then you feel like you wasted all the damage you put out, plus the cleric's spell points, and really accomplished nothing because all you really did was tank, and ultimately, why not pull out a shield and just stand there uselessly while the vorpal guy tries to get a lucky roll?

The issue here isn't always the people using vorpals. I can totally understand the need to have one because some of the encounters are pretty tedious without it. The vampire in pop with his ridiculous regeneration and his running around the room constantly make it an annoying fight if all you have is dps. I'm all for pulling out a vorpal or disruptor on him. It's fine that vorpals have their place, but there shouldn't be a lot of situations where a vorpal is clearly the best thing, because then you end up feeling like why not make a build entirely around dual wielding vorpals and just be the vorpal carrier? {snip}

Well well, Plynx and Neferi. My Xorian Cipher running Partners! Hey guys, I didn't know you read/posted on the forum! Need to come visit here more often!

As for the subject, you both couldn't be more correct in your observations.
Vorpels should be 100% situational. And any major fighter type who runs around full time with one is certainly compensating for something!
I do agree that any non-standard melee character using a vorp alot wouldn't be a real bad thing, might help. For ex. Rogues/bored clerics/healing or buffing spec'ed Bards. (Though it would hurt my own personal build)
I'm willing to bet there are many people out there who have built a character around a weapon like this, no doubt. Its a sad thing, but it happens.

Now if only their buddies would build a dual shield-Weilding AC buff aggro pullers.;)
(If it were possible I bet there would be a few of these)

P.S. I need to start running for the Gird again, I lost mine...:(

[AEschyl]

aye, the only time using a vorpal is "worth it" is when you're doing a quest with high-hitpoint creatures that ALSO have high con... and that hit really really hard (like the twilight forge on elite)

any other time... you get very diminishing returns on vorpals (even dual wielding... though that mostly makes up for the lack of dps just through sheer number of attacks)

[LeLoric]

Cant we just add 200 oozes to every guest to solve the vorpal issue? :eek:

[AEschyl]

sure, they'll just changed them to glass spiders after everyone complains

[Neferi]

Hey Q :) How did you lose your girdle? :( Ok we have to go run Xoriat again! Also, did your muckbane bug get fixed yet? If so, we have some pit runs to do. Let me know when you're up for it.

As for the vorpal question, I hope it remains the way it is now, a weapon only useful on certain mobs, instead of becoming a requirement in every fight. Sorry if this is ressurecting a dead thread or w/e, I just now saw that there were more replies.

[DKerrigan]

You obviously haven't run PitP yet...vorpals are required equipment if you aren't run all arcanes/clerics..W007 for unbalanced qwest requirementz!!! (My level 4 ranger croaked 5 times in the quest...after the fire trap bridge of well done...and after figuring out how to bypass the trap without a rogue even though there was a rogue in group)...hoorah for increased trap DCzorrzxxx!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1111111111111

Classing this quest as requiring 4 level 4s tro challlenge is a JOKE. Ha Ha. whoever built the quest.

[jaitee]

imo vorps as a whole are not great main weapons, can't use them on rednames, vs trash mobs you are wasting your time, here's what might work though
dwarven barb/fighter 12/2
42 str when rageing, power attack, 2 handed and improved 2 handed fighing, improved crit slash, dwarven axe enchancements, confrim crit enchancement, improve crit barb enchancement

with all though and a +1 vorp great axe it might be viable as a main weapon

unless my math is wrong w/ power attack while rage is on your have a +33 to hit (+37 to comfirm crits) and damage would be 1 d 12 + ???? 21 from str +2 from dwarven enhancements +5 from power attack and then you mutiply for the 2 handed feats I think X2 right? if so it would be 1 d 12 + 56 ) so at least 50 points on a swing the neat part is a crit on a 18 (improved crit and the barb enchancement) so 50 points of damage a swing and on a 18 or 19 a possible 200 hit crit and a 20 just dead, that would be viable as a every fight weapon except the bosses


crit all you want, while running to a mob, he will be dead by my PK or FoD...as for pop, pk/FoD/pk/FoD/pk/FoD, who needs vorps? well i hope u tanks have them cause you wont be doing much but eating popcorn, and enjoying the show

[Shecky]

You obviously haven't run PitP yet...vorpals are required equipment if you aren't run all arcanes/clerics..W007 for unbalanced qwest requirementz!!! (My level 4 ranger croaked 5 times in the quest...after the fire trap bridge of well done...and after figuring out how to bypass the trap without a rogue even though there was a rogue in group)...hoorah for increased trap DCzorrzxxx!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1111111111111

Classing this quest as requiring 4 level 4s tro challlenge is a JOKE. Ha Ha. whoever built the quest.

PitP?

[Aspenor]

PitP?

Proof in the Poison......

This guy seriously said that vorpals are needed in that quest???

Wow......just...*shudder* I'm horrified. How bad can you be?

[Boldrin]

I use vorpal 80% of the time on my ftr and outkill everyone about 75% of the time. I use a falchion of righteousness with improved crit , and 2 handed feats, plus seeker +6. This adds up to lots of crits, lots of damage, and lots of kills. On my rogue I dual weild paralyzer and vorpal of pure good, and again outkill most tanks on the gianthold quests. Vorpal=good, go get some.

[llevenbaxx]

I use vorpal 80% of the time on my ftr and outkill everyone about 75% of the time. I use a falchion of righteousness with improved crit , and 2 handed feats, plus seeker +6. This adds up to lots of crits, lots of damage, and lots of kills. On my rogue I dual weild paralyzer and vorpal of pure good, and again outkill most tanks on the gianthold quests. Vorpal=good, go get some.

Its kinda lame when people start putting in their LFMs "PoP-Norm then elite. Need one tank-MUST have vorpal pls".

Saw this yesterday while trying to level up mt ftr 12(only needed 1700xps:eek: )who doesnt currently have a vorpal. I could have tried to explain that I was in a group the day before where noone had a vorpal OR disruptor. All I had to do is trip him when he popped, drop a FW on him with the melees beating on him and he was dead within seconds.

That people stop thinking and are just "needing" these weapons to have access to the group imo is not a good thing for the game.

[Aspenor]

I use vorpal 80% of the time on my ftr and outkill everyone about 75% of the time. I use a falchion of righteousness with improved crit , and 2 handed feats, plus seeker +6. This adds up to lots of crits, lots of damage, and lots of kills. On my rogue I dual weild paralyzer and vorpal of pure good, and again outkill most tanks on the gianthold quests. Vorpal=good, go get some.

:confused:

You use a vorpal, with seeker, and righteousness on it? Seeker and vorpal are both prefixes, they don't appear on the same weapon.

So which is it?

[Stanley_Nicholas]

:confused:

You use a vorpal, with seeker, and righteousness on it? Seeker and vorpal are both prefixes, they don't appear on the same weapon.

So which is it?

Maybe he has a bloodstone. He did say it was Seeker +6.

[Aspenor]

Maybe he has a bloodstone. He did say it was Seeker +6.

/shrug

Has to be.

[VirieSquichie]

So, we have people complaining elite's easy and stuff like vorpals and smiters make regular weapons pointless.

Easy fix. Make Elite mean that vorpals, smiters, paralyzers etc. don't work, or have dramatically reduced chances to work. Drop the mobs' insane immunities to just about everything else and make it so the melees have to actually break a sweat to zerg on elite. Leave normal and hard the way they are.

I'm sick of seeing just about everything be immune (or nearly so) to casters' higher end effects, but the melees cut through them like they were made of tissue paper. The duergar I've been involved with lately, especially, are practially pointless for a caster to be in the party...if you're lucky, you can get them to take a couple hits in a firewall...everything else they either SR away, save & evade for no damage, or are inexplicably immune to.

[Xhedos]

Heh had to chime in here. 1 vorpal is ok, but yes i think DPS is a better choice if you only have 1 weapon to use. I TWF with a +1 vorpal longsword of righteousness and offhand a +1 Vorpal Kukri (vanilla hehe). I always carry many many haste potions and i stack fighters haste action boost. I have power crit and fighters crit enhance. I can turn precesion on if i think it's needed for no aggro killing sprees, but in general i prefer to do a bit of damage between my base damage and 2d6+4 sneak attack damage i recieve to help out during those times where I do not get a 20 (which is always confirmed). The ludacris speed at which I can attack ensures that I pretty much always out kill the party by a significant margin. Furthermore you can't beat running towards 2 side by side mobs and killing them both with your first attack (1st attack is a double with GTWF).
my 2 coppers

[Mad_Bombardier]

So, we have people complaining elite's easy and stuff like vorpals and smiters make regular weapons pointless.

Easy fix. Make Elite mean that vorpals, smiters, paralyzers etc. don't work, or have dramatically reduced chances to work. Drop the mobs' insane immunities to just about everything else and make it so the melees have to actually break a sweat to zerg on elite. Leave normal and hard the way they are.I'm sure lots of people will disagree, but I think this idea has merit. Perhaps not for Elite, but for another higher setting. You want the best loot, you play without instakills. You could apply the same for spells.

Granted most Elite players already pass on the vorpal/smiter/paralyzer and go for straight DPS, but it's an interesting idea that's worth discussing.

[Gimpster]

The duergar I've been involved with lately, especially, are practially pointless for a caster to be in the party...if you're lucky, you can get them to take a couple hits in a firewall...everything else they either SR away, save & evade for no damage, or are inexplicably immune to.
WHAT duergar has SR??

[Aspenor]

WHAT duergar has SR??

Only one I can think of would be if a duergar cleric cast SR on himself?

[HiWae]

Vorpal is the new Wounding. (But, good luck finding a Vorpal Sickle, Handaxe, Kukri, or Kama.) ;)

Got 2 of them vorpal sickles, one silver vorpal sickle of shatter and one vorpal sickle.

That's all I'm saying --

[Staedtler]

I use vorpal 80% of the time on my ftr and outkill everyone about 75% of the time. I use a falchion of righteousness with improved crit , and 2 handed feats, plus seeker +6. This adds up to lots of crits, lots of damage, and lots of kills. On my rogue I dual weild paralyzer and vorpal of pure good, and again outkill most tanks on the gianthold quests. Vorpal=good, go get some.

You do realize that a vorpal only works on a confirmed crit when you roll a 20 -- not any confirmed crit.

For me, vorpals, like all insta-kill attacks, are a matter of taste. Some players can't live without vorpals, paralyzers, smiters, disruptors, PK and FoD. I find that they take the challenge out of the game. To each their own.

[Boldrin]

Yes I use a bloodstone. Doesn't have seeker on the weapon( kinda obvious isn't it?). You just have to have the right kind of vorpal to be effective. I don't think minimizing the effect of vorpals is going to help the game, there are quite a few critters that it doesnt effect, or that I wouldn't bother using it on. It's really only the higher lvl quests that I use it. People..... even though they're more common now, remember these are EPIC weapons, they're supposed to kick butt, lol. Complaining that epics ruin the game is nonsensical.

As to the above statement , lol. I do know that vorpals only work on a 20, but when i get 12 extra damage added to my roll every time I crit, on top of my crit damage, it makes the falchion very high DPS as well as epic. As far as taking the challenge out of the game... I don't have 6 hours to run a quest :) I prefer a more expeditious method.

[boldarblood]

I'm sick of seeing just about everything be immune (or nearly so) to casters' higher end effects, but the melees cut through them like they were made of tissue paper. The duergar I've been involved with lately, especially, are practially pointless for a caster to be in the party...if you're lucky, you can get them to take a couple hits in a firewall...everything else they either SR away, save & evade for no damage, or are inexplicably immune to.

I have a much different experience with casters in my guild. As a melee you are lucky to get within 20 feet of any mob with the cleric/caster taking care of business.

[Ekental]

This is really build dependent.

Sword and board fighters may find that a vorpal (especially with cleave) will net them more "dmg" than an actual... dmg weapon.

TWF and THF characters will likely find that pure dmg is preferable to a vorpal in almost all cases.

The other detriment to vorpals, as mentioned, is that it doesn't usually draw enough aggro for a DPS... rogue (i.e.) to contribute.
It's a very selfish weapon, and is a flat out declaration to support dmg dealers to whip out their own vorpal or stat damager or sit around and do nothing.

As for casters/clerics spamming instant death spells. That's all well and good, but your going to lose out on some speed unless you have 2-3 casters/clerics in the party. Even then, the SP loss means your going to waste time.. shrining, rather than looting. (honestly, that's what end game is about anyways)
i.e., rather than FoD/Destruct/PK your way up to the PotP door, just have the caster run ahead and throw down a dance sphere at every mob group. The fighters can do the rest. 2 Decent fighters will keep up with the caster, which will enable the caster to have the mana to do the rooms without wasting time running up and shrining, and the fighters to do another room at the same time. (with the cleric pulling the levers)

[Morgoth_the_Enemy]

How long you been playing this game? Tanks don't cast FoD, that's why they use the watered down version of a vorpal.

Of course they can't cast Finger of Death, which is why it was so odd that in this post (http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p=1232143&postcount=26) they were directly compared. Apples and oranges?

[Spookydodger]

Before I got a vorpal I thought it might be too powerful. When I finally got one, I found that most of the time I was still using paralyzing or damage output much more than vorpal.

Sometimes vorpals are fun to use, but most times it just makes fights longer.

Only on tough-to-kill vorpalable mobs does it make sense to use it exclusively. That list of mobs is remarkably short.

[Wook]

I got a Dwarven Ranger that duel wields a +2 Vorpal Dwarven Axe and a +1 Vorpal Sickle of Tendon Slice, Worked hard to get them 1 through looting 1 through trading.

Unless the monster is immune to the vorpal effects it really makes the bigger fights easy as long as I don't single target. Yes I got to roll that 20 but I get extra attack per round to get that 20, The feeling of Vorpaling those Orge Magi's in a few strikes is nice especially wen your trying to dps them and they do their disappearing act.

As far as damage output when I dont get that 20 on a 19-20 in each hand I get crits plus I got a decent strength so I do decent damage I just dont get the elemental effects

And when I can't use vorpals I got many other weapons to fall back on

So in my opinion Vorpals are decent weapons especially if you can duel wield them but if your doing it single handed you might consider other weapons because you have less of a chance for it to kick off.

oh one last thing noone should be telling anyone how to play/equip their characters, Its their character they can play it how they want to not always how we want them too.

[Paragon]

Vorpal is nice, but seriously, DPS wins every time.

They are situational, there are some mobs that vorps are really nice for, say the vamp in POP. However, you will never see a pure vorpal-wielder outkill a truly elite DPS character. A well-designed, well-equipped, and well-played barbarian or str-based ranger can kill things far faster than you can roll a 20 on a vorpal.

As for mobs like ogre mages...I play a dwarven ranger that can dps them from full health to zilch so fast they can't dissapear. Or if they do, then I just keep moving and do it again a minute or two later when they reappear.

Even on elite, vorpals are unreliable and situational, and unless a character lacks the stats or equipment, DPS is much better.

[craythegray]

I currently have 5 melee toons. All lvl 14. 1 is 28 point build Str/DPS. 1 is 32 build Str/DPS. 1 is Barb....STR/DPS. 1 is HP/2 weapon DPS 1 is an evastion tank.


I have about 20 vorpals at this time. Very rarely am I out killed no matter what I use. DPS or duel vorps.

All that said he is what I have found.

First

Groups with two or three vorpal users OR two or three DPS move faster than mixed groups. (in PUGs its aways good to ask what everyone else is using.)


Second

All vorpals are not the same. A plus 2 vorpal khopesh/dwarf ax of pure good will still put out the dps. Make a Dwarf with the ax APs dual wield a set of good vorps (DA and Hand ax) and you got a very good DPS rate. (the AP adds 2 two hit and damage.)

Third

Give a donkey a vorpal....he will just cut off his own head. (its who is behind the screen....the gear is just as many other people have said a tool.)


My last melee was made to out kill a FD sorc. (which i have 2 so I know how fast they can kill). He can pull it off with zerging, haste, and duel wielding vorps (with a jung collor). But its a true challange.

Final note...and I wish i could remeber the guys name. Started with a B. I rarely get out killed on the blender. Normally lead by at least 10. (yes i know i know kill count means nothing....but it is a gauge to how your doing.)

This guy pwned me.....out killed my by 10. (which i consider the Pwned lvl...well finial count was 9...still made me wonder what he did....so i asked.)

He was using one of the best DPS weapons in the game for that zone. a plus 2 shocking burst great ax of greater (type) bane. I was dual wielding plus 3 vorpal dwarf ax and a plus 3 vorpal hand ax. (he was killing me) Till i switched two dps. Plus 5 holy DA of pure good and plus 3 holy burst kukri of pure good). And I ran out of mobs to catch up.

My point is a tank...good tank has to be able to switch out gear and can't always depend on 1 good weapon. (But its so pretty to watch them turn blue and die)


My two cents...forgive the spelling


Cray

[Tanka]

Add me to the "Vorpals are overrated" group.

I'll use my paralyzer or SoS before I use my vorpal, save for against, say, the PotP Vampire. Otherwise those are just about the only two weapons I use.

[Tanka]

My point is a tank...good tank has to be able to switch out gear and can't always depend on 1 good weapon. (But its so pretty to watch them turn blue and die)
Which is precisely why I say:

"A melee build is 1/4 build, 1/4 items, and 1/2 player."

You can have "the best" build, with "the best" gear, and still be a bad player.

I will take a good player with non-optimal (but still good) equipment and build over a mediocre player with the best equipment available.

[Shecky]

Which is precisely why I say:

"A melee build is 1/4 build, 1/4 items, and 1/2 player."

You can have "the best" build, with "the best" gear, and still be a bad player.

I will take a good player with non-optimal (but still good) equipment and build over a mediocre player with the best equipment available.

At the same time, gear does cover a multitude of sins - if someone with the "top weapons in the game" DOESN'T mow 'em down, that player is pretty much sure to be awful. I mean, with the weapons cray was talking about, even a modicum of talent and a minimum of barely common sense would make it easy. Unfortunately, there are too many out there who don't have those minima or for whom the unearned ego counteracts any real ability. Got a small but respectable DNG list for just those sorts.

[Alcamez]

I had a vorpal just after the Titan raid release. It was a +1 vorpal greatsword....RR Dwarf Diff 16.... It was truly one of the best swords I had on my umd drow pally..... with impr two hand wep feat. I was able to vorp multiple targets and toss that in with all the smites I had. Now I rarely use it. And for some reason my cleric always pulls em. Since I respect my pally, the +5 Anarchic kopesh of pure good with a smite is way better, or the +4holy burst heavy pick with a held mob. Vorp is useless when questing with a group but use it with an off hand finesse paralyser with your greater heroism clicky to get back you + to hit and pull the mobs in one by one when soloing and see its true effectiveness... <serious run-on sorry to all you English majors :P

[iconiclastic]

With the escalation of hp, ac, attack bonus on endgame elite mobs, the game has started to become about what instakill weapons you bring to the table and less about your character class or play style.

I just want to say, it's extremely discouraging and makes the game a lot less fun to play for me.

They remove the satisfaction from many fights, they just end--maybe now, maybe later. They remove meaning from your class and combat style--it's you're playing a new class "vorpal wielder." It skews builds towards getting more attacks in, making more attempts at a 20 or whatever instakill ability is relevant. It makes dps builds without the uber weapons mere meat shields waiting for someone else's wonder weapon to go off. In short, it leads to an annoying, cheap-feeling and cheesy gameplay--much the same as firewalling and cloudkilling stupid mobs behind a gate.

I'm not complaining that people do it, because as the game currently is, it's SMART. With many of these elite mobs, it's the most effective/efficient route.

So far it's just a problem with the little tip at the end of the game. Hopefully it will be recognized as a problem and addressed?

Oh whatever!You dont always roll a 20.You might as well say that using a symbol of fear in the crucible is too powerful and you would be just as ******** saying so.It seems that it is only a problem for you until you whine about it and they nerf or change things again!Why should a fighter be penalizied for maximizing his chances of survivability?It seems that anyone with the ability to solve a difficult quest gets stomped by the gm's for their creativity while those lacking grey matter between their ears complain about it.Here is a tip for you Baaah stay with the flock!

[Geonis]

On the other hand, what are the chances that a full time vorpal wielder will be able to roll a 20 in that 3-4 seconds?

Given a full TWF attack sequence takes ~2-2.5 secs, about 1 in 2. When you throw in haste and attack speed boost it gets better.


If anyone in my groups is using a vorpal in high leveel groups they are generally not invited to my group again in the future.

Good to know, since I myself make notes as to who is elitist garbage and add them to my DNG list. We'll do each other a favor and not group.


Khopesh TWF'ers can use a vorpal as their main weapon and still rack up nearly as much damage as SoS monsters like me. Obviously the real problem here is that khopeshes need nerfing. :D

Hey hey hey!!!!!! Step away from the khopesh buddy!



My point is a tank...good tank has to be able to switch out gear and can't always depend on 1 good weapon. (But its so pretty to watch them turn blue and die)


Cray

Now this I can agree with.


Vorp is useless when questing with a group

Uh, okay. :confused: Just send any vorpals you pull my way.


I'llEven on trash mobs, I'll take my Seeker +10 khopesh, thank you. 90+ damage with power attack on and 50+ AC, every 25% of the time? 220+ on Smite Evil crits? Yes please.

I think I'll take my Vorpal khopesh with Bloodstone and power attack doing real close to the same damage with a chance to instakill (on average once every 3 attack sequences). :D


So to the folks that are bashing vorpals in this thread and dont have one, I wish you luck in your rolls....

For the ones that Have em and still bash em... Is the game fun for ya still?

Hell yeah!!!!


And for those saying you have to have DPS, I do just by switching weapons and can keep up with just about anyone. And the "DPS is faster" is a load of ****. :eek:

[Grenfell]

Three points:

1. What makes some of you say "vorpal is not DPS"?

One doesn't have to use some crappy +1 vorpal longsword in lieu of a +5 holy scimtar of PG.... The base weapon counts after all.

For what it's worth, I favor vorpal greataxes for this reason. The difference between a +3 vorpal greataxe and a +5 holy GA of PG is not actually that large. The extra 3d6 of damage (and +2 to hit/damage) is more than compensated for by the times you roll a 20.

2. As the game progresses, I suspect that either vorpals will become far more valuable as mob HP goes completely berserk, or they will become worthless as every mob will have some sort of anti-vorpal protection.

3. As the game progresses, vorpals themselves may drop in "higher quality" variants. If we start getting +5 Vorpal Greataxe of Righteousness, I'd like to see the DPS weapon that compares to that in killing power.

/gren

[Kethir]

Well, like you said Gren, vorpal dps depends on the vorpal.

And people who say vorpal is not dps are thinking +1 longsword vorpals. Of course, as you stated in your own thread on the subject, 1 handed fighting is seriously out of style as it is seriously underpowered vis a vis 2 handed fighting.

BTW, vorpal greatsword is better than a greataxe, if you're not a dwarf. A 17-19 will do x2 damage, whereas on a greataxe, only a 19 will do x3 damage. A vorpal falchion is even better.

I opine vorpals will become much more valuable, but not until after the next mod, as you can't vorpal non-vampire undead. I don't believe we'll see every mob with deathblock (like reaver preraid) - that would be un-d&d like.

The quest where vorpals really rock is madstone. I haven't done madstone elite on my ranger, but I expect that quest to be ridiculous as a dual wielder. Mobs in there can't be instakilled easily, and they have tons of hp.

But yes, a simple +1 longsword is not the ideal vorpal for a dps build. Any one hander isn't ideal for a dps build. A +1 longsword, however, is just fine for a twf str based ranger/fighter/rogue, or a cleric, or bard.

I don't know who designed gianthold, but when you compare the monster saves and difficulty on elite for gianthold vs any other part of the game, there is something seriously different going on in gianthold. I've been doing alot of non-gianthold recently on elite for favor, and its like a different game outside gianthold.

[geoffhanna]

Vorpals may not be good main weapons, but for the vamp in PoP nothing can beat a vorpal or a disruptor, and certainly your puncturers are going to do zilch against him.

Who has actually disrupted that vamp? Not heard it can be done but actually done it? I bet I've bounced 1000 attacks off him from my disruptor with zero actual disruptions.

I _could_ just be really unlucky...

[Hvymetal]

Who has actually disrupted that vamp? Not heard it can be done but actually done it? I bet I've bounced 1000 attacks off him from my disruptor with zero actual disruptions.

I _could_ just be really unlucky...

I've wittnessed him being disrupted a few times, it does happen he just saves a whole bunch I think.

[Gimpster]

Who has actually disrupted that vamp? Not heard it can be done but actually done it?
Me, and many many other players. Conventional wisdom is that disruption works better than vorpal on him, because what with the -4 attack penalty from chasing him around you could have trouble confirming the crit.

Mathmatically though, it should be either identical, or a win for the vorpal if you have any kind of Critical Accuracy boost.
For Vorpal, you need to roll a natural 20 and then hit his AC to confirm.
For Disruption, you need to hit his AC and then he must roll a natural 1 to fail the save.
Either way, a 5% per-hit chance of victory.

[craythegray]

[QUOTE=Kethir;1253253]Well, like you said Gren, vorpal dps depends on the vorpal.

BTW, vorpal greatsword is better than a greataxe, if you're not a dwarf. A 17-19 will do x2 damage, whereas on a greataxe, only a 19 will do x3 damage. A vorpal falchion is even better.

QUOTE]

Have to disagree with you Kethir. (At least for surtain builds)


(you said this point just explaining why) Dwarfs get action points that can give the +2/+2 to axs. So a plus 1 vorpal great ax becomes a plus 3 vorpal great ax. A plus 3 vorpal great ax becomes a plus 5 vorpal great ax.....ect ect.


I have found great axs (with a 32 str) crit double of what the exact same great sword does. (again on a dwarf)

Great swords have a slower swing.....and falchions are the slowest of the three.


Hands down IMO great ax is better.


Just my two cents...forgive the spelling.


Cray

[Boldrin]

Who has actually disrupted that vamp? Not heard it can be done but actually done it? I bet I've bounced 1000 attacks off him from my disruptor with zero actual disruptions.

I _could_ just be really unlucky...

I always use disruption on the vamp on my fighter, and on My TWF rogue I use a vorpal/disruptor combo. Disruption + cursespewing is even better. If you think of it, vorpal, you need to roll a 20 AND confirm it, disruption, you hit pretty much every time, all he has to do is roll a 1 to save and he's done, usually on my pop runs, the vamp gets disrupted.

[Tanka]

I always use disruption on the vamp on my fighter, and on My TWF rogue I use a vorpal/disruptor combo. Disruption + cursespewing is even better. If you think of it, vorpal, you need to roll a 20 AND confirm it, disruption, you hit pretty much every time, all he has to do is roll a 1 to save and he's done, usually on my pop runs, the vamp gets disrupted.
He usually gets Vorpal'd on my runs.

Granted, I tend to trip him as soon as possible, so that lends to everyone swinging their vorpals at him for that 20.

[MtnLion]

Who has actually disrupted that vamp? Not heard it can be done but actually done it? I bet I've bounced 1000 attacks off him from my disruptor with zero actual disruptions.

I _could_ just be really unlucky...

Apparently you are, since I have disrupted him four times, to date, and seen others do likewise. On the other hand, when I dual wield disrupter and vorpal offhand, the vorpal has hit first, so far.

[PsyloSatan]

I dunno about all the melee vorpal stuff. There are some places where its useful more than anything else but if you dont know where those places are you are taking a gamble with low(ish) damage while you are getting pounded on. I dont have a problem with someone wanting to go melee vorpal through a whole dungeon as long as they dont whine at me for not healing them fast enough.

I recently looted a +1 vorpal returning axe of righteousness tho and I gotta say that is a force to be reckoned with in the hands of my ranger in any dungeon and almost any situation. Granted I have gotten myself smashed a few times here and there going vorpal through an entire dungeon like pop or something like that so even for a ranger its a bit of a gamble if you pick the wrong battle. But if you see a ton of these returning weapons with vorpal on them start dropping like candy then there will be a problem. How hard is it for a 6 man crew to roll a few 20s? I might actually have to break down and pick up Tensers Transformation on my sorcs lol.

For now all the vorpal and smiting and whatever should be expected. We are level 14 now and those of us that know how to play need big boy toys. Switching DPS weapons is what we did back in the day when we were doing loot runs in C06 or earlier. I highly doubt the devs are "giving" all the mobs freedom of movement and deathward and such just to save them from our insta death weapons. The mobs are getting these abilities because they are CR 20(ish) and there is no reason they shouldnt be using spells and abilities that reflect that level. By comaprrison it wouldnt make much sence for us to be running around with the same spells we had at lvl 10 or earlier and only adding a higher DC. So dont hate the game, hate the player and tell them to Learn2Power5 :p