Yup, Turn undead still useless

[Luthen]

So the other night I pulled a +5 Sacred Fullplate of Command as an end reward (trust me the rest was even worse). I have a friend who is a Turn Undead based cleric (he likes using DVs and so forth). He's got a decent Charisma base, is level 14, wore this armor and also has the gloves from the Stormreaver raid (they give a total +4 bonus to your turns). Well.. we thought it'd be fun to see what a maxed out turning cleric can do with enhancements and what not. So he went into Dead Predators on Elite. the undead are around 9-12 in that quest for the most part.

I bet you already know what happened when he hit the old turn undead button. You got it. A bunch of pretty lights and not much else. just reafirming how useless Turn undead still is here. Nothing further.

[The_Cataclysm]

Just so you know, sacred doesn't stack with the gauntlets.

[Luthen]

Just so you know, sacred doesn't stack with the gauntlets.

Oh I know. But hey... so many other things are buggy ya never know. I meant it mostly for the Command aspect. :D

[The_Cataclysm]

Oh I know. But hey... so many other things are buggy ya never know. I meant it mostly for the Command aspect. :D

Command doesn't affect turns at all.

[brianohu2005]

What I don't understand, is if they are going to make it a class feature, then make it a USEFUL one. What is the point of selling it as one of the things cleric can do if they can't do it. I've got a 13 level cleric with a decent Charisma that has never been able to turn either....at least not well enough to bother. I even tried going back to old quests that were alot lower level and it still didn't turn enough to make it worth it.

....although Hold Person now seems to be working better and it wasnt' working very well for awhile.

[Elfvyra]

The only real way to 'fix' it, would be to change HD to CR. Not just for turning, but for many spells as well. The spells and turning work fine for PnP, but we face epic mobs on a daily basis. And those are just the peons.... ;)

[Gimpster]

The real reason Turning is useless in DDO is a game design problem. Turning is a real all-or-nothing effect; either the turn succeeds and the monsters are destroyed or feared (total victory), or the turn fails and nothing happens at all.

For game balance, it's difficult to make encounters that will challenge groups who both have and don't have such a powerful effect. So the tendency towards solving that is to design monsters such that turning barely ever works.

The better way to fix it is to step away from accuracy to the PnP rules and give other, lesser benefits turning could have. For example, undeads who resist the turn could still be debuffed for -2 or -4 for a minute or so. That's a substantial combat benefit for the players, but it doesn't win the fight all on its own.

[MysticTheurge]

The better way to fix it is to step away from accuracy to the PnP rules and give other, lesser benefits turning could have. For example, undeads who resist the turn could still be debuffed for -2 or -4 for a minute or so. That's a substantial combat benefit for the players, but it doesn't win the fight all on its own.

And this should be easy enough to do without outright slaughtering the D&D rules via the enhancement system. Since the enhancement system is all on top of everything else anyway.

[The_Cataclysm]

The real reason Turning is useless in DDO is a game design problem. Turning is a real all-or-nothing effect; either the turn succeeds and the monsters are destroyed or feared (total victory), or the turn fails and nothing happens at all.

For game balance, it's difficult to make encounters that will challenge groups who both have and don't have such a powerful effect. So the tendency towards solving that is to design monsters such that turning barely ever works.

The better way to fix it is to step away from accuracy to the PnP rules and give other, lesser benefits turning could have. For example, undeads who resist the turn could still be debuffed for -2 or -4 for a minute or so. That's a substantial combat benefit for the players, but it doesn't win the fight all on its own.

That is a really great idea

[boldarblood]

Thank god it doesnt work good, I hate chasing feared monsters.. :D

[Gangwulfe]

At lv 14 Collette has Turn Undead 1 enhancement. I also have a sheild with sacred on it, just for turning that I switch to. This means, even level turns for a Paladin.

26 Cha - easy to get the + 4 level Mod. I usually hit around 17 HD or so. The Giant Skeletons in The new content, I have seen me turn on a 2+. I have actually seen me turn 2 at once.

It's not broken, if you have a good Cha, and you watch the HD.

Gang

[captain1]

really.......

thats pretty good..cause I have a level 13 pali with 30 charisma and I cant turn anything, or rather I have not turned anything, the fact that 1- I dont have a sacred item ...and 2- I dont try very often because I think Im gunna fail may have something to do with it. Till now every time Ive tried, I get nadda

[pastor_dex]

i have a 12 cleric/ 2 pally, his Char is high due to his pallyness and he has sacred armor, I couldn't turn stuff in Delira's ellite today.

if it wasn't for DVs they would be disscarded entirely.

[Ithrani]

When you Turn it should have an area effect granted, but it should be like a haste spell area, either it is the target and the area around or centered on the caster. When targeted it makes a direct turn attempt against that target if the attempt succeeds to turn the target it runs away and then cowers or maybe is destroyed, any left over HD of turn damage attempts to turn any others in the area. If it does not work then it tries to affect the next highest level target in the area and rinse repeat. If centered on the Cleric then it tries to turn the highest level undead in the area, then again rinse repeat.

It is probably difficult for Turbine to code this. What really sucks is that they probably won't take the time to fix it. But Turn Undead is hardly useless, you can turn some creature, destroy or make them cower. My 9th level cleric can turn and destroy ever regular wight, cower the armored wights, priest wights, and spectres on sorruwdusk. His Chr was only an 18 then I have some enhancements and stuff for DV's and extra turning. More of a Porta-Shrine
then a Turn Undead cleric and I think is can come in handy but has to be lower level stuff and it should not be that way.

[Yaga_Nub]

The only real way to 'fix' it, would be to change HD to CR. Not just for turning, but for many spells as well. The spells and turning work fine for PnP, but we face epic mobs on a daily basis. And those are just the peons.... ;)

That wouldn't do anything Elfvyra. In another post I mentioned something about HD and a dev responded that they have kept the HD the same as in the MM but then they add bonus HP to the mobs to make the tougher. So a 13 HD Ghast for instance still is truly only 13 HD but they might give it a 300 HP bonus on top of that.

[Hendrik]

Useless?

Not IMO. I turn the **** undead on the Desert Surface up to and including the Undead Giants in the Reaver Pre-raid.

[Shaamis]

really.......

thats pretty good..cause I have a level 13 pali with 30 charisma and I cant turn anything, or rather I have not turned anything, the fact that 1- I dont have a sacred item ...and 2- I dont try very often because I think Im gunna fail may have something to do with it. Till now every time Ive tried, I get nadda

Sounds like you "...lack conviction to perform turning this undead..."

j/k

On another note, I am making a undead specced Pali, currently lvl 8, 12 turns, I use divine light, and turn undead. I have a sacred ring I wear, and my Charisma is 24. I can only turn the undead in Delera's on Norm, but Divine light works great. Can't wait to get lvl 2, and 3 of it.

I am having fun with the character, and isnt thats what its all about?

[OKCRandy1]

I agree with Gimpster's suggestions. I'm glad to read some have found turn undead useful, at level appropriate content I've not turned anything with my lvl 9 cleric.

[Ziggy]

really.......

thats pretty good..cause I have a level 13 pali with 30 charisma and I cant turn anything, or rather I have not turned anything, the fact that 1- I dont have a sacred item ...and 2- I dont try very often because I think Im gunna fail may have something to do with it. Till now every time Ive tried, I get nadda
Thats because you are turing as a level 10 cleric.
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/paladin.htm#turnUndead


Turn Undead (Su (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#supernaturalAbilities))

When a paladin reaches 4th level, she gains the supernatural ability (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#supernaturalAbilities) to turn undead (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/specialAttacks.htm#turnOrRebukeUndead). She may use this ability a number of times per day equal to 3 + her Charisma modifier. She turns undead as a cleric (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/cleric.htm) of three levels lower would.

[Shaamis]

Charisma is very important in turning Undead, as you can see here:

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/specialAttacks.htm#turnOrRebukeUndead

Not only is it instrumental in how many turns per rest, but the max HD, and even the amount of undead HD you turn, are all tied to it.

I think (not sure) the +2 sacred bonus adds to your turning level, which adds into your max turning HD, and how many HD you are able to affect.

A cleric with Maxxed Charisma is the best turning weapon, followed closely by a paladin, (of course)

Paladins main stat is Charisma though, so it's a toss-up in my mind.

[Riot]

Feat = Greater Turning... that's what is needed.

[Conejo]

even Greater Turning won't fix the problem.

the problem is that Undead are being given more HD than they ought to have.

this makes Turn Undead good for one thing: Divine Vitality.

if more clerics refused to use DV, maybe Turbine would realize what a sorry state Turning is. but i think not.

[katanaflame]

The truth seems to be turn undead is like fliping a coin to get it to work.
the fix they gave us for this is divine light I do gota say though if you dont have dl 3 I can do more damage with my 2 handers.

why dl works better than turn thats simple less chance of insta death to the bad guys.

we all know how turn is supossed to work the truth is they dont want their undead to be a big joke or just fodder.

If turn worked properly what would a lot of these undead quest be like with a cleric and 2 pallys? I think you know so this is why it is how it is.

[Shaamis]

The truth seems to be turn undead is like fliping a coin to get it to work.
the fix they gave us for this is divine light I do gota say though if you dont have dl 3 I can do more damage with my 2 handers.

why dl works better than turn thats simple less chance of insta death to the bad guys.

we all know how turn is supossed to work the truth is they dont want their undead to be a big joke or just fodder.

If turn worked properly what would a lot of these undead quest be like with a cleric and 2 pallys? I think you know so this is why it is how it is.

If I were the Devs, I would just double/triple the amount of undead that shows up, and bring their HD down to correct levels.

The clerics/Paladins do their turns, get half of them, and then fight the rest.

By the third or fourth room, they will start getting low on turning attempts, and think "maybe a full group with tanks/ CC mages might be good too."

But Undead specced clerics and paladins would be fun. Imagine a full team of Paladins, and Clerics, it would be like an exorcism party!

That would be a better solution than jacking up the HD of the few skellys in there.

Sincerely,

[Ziggy]

even Greater Turning won't fix the problem.

the problem is that Undead are being given more HD than they ought to have.

this makes Turn Undead good for one thing: Divine Vitality.

if more clerics refused to use DV, maybe Turbine would realize what a sorry state Turning is. but i think not.
The devs have stated that they dont give extra HD.

The problem is in PnP we normally face undead who are not higher CR then the party, we normally face lower level undead in larger quantities.

A level 14 cleric with a 16 charisma


The first thing you do is roll a turning check to see how powerful an undead creature you can turn. This is a Charisma check (1d20 + your Charisma modifier). Table: Turning Undead gives you the Hit Dice of the most powerful undead you can affect, relative to your level. On a given turning attempt, you can turn no undead creature whose Hit Dice exceed the result on this table.

can affect anywhere from 10 HD to 18 HD as the maximum HD a monster can have.
Next you


Turning Damage
If your roll on Table: Turning Undead is high enough to let you turn at least some of the undead within 60 feet, roll 2d6 + your cleric level + your Charisma modifier for turning damage. That’s how many total Hit Dice of undead you can turn.
If your Charisma score is average or low, it’s possible to roll fewer Hit Dice of undead turned than indicated on Table: Turning Undead.

Which means with the 16 charisma, you can get 12+14+3 for a total of 29 HD of creatures you can affect where the highest HD creature you can affect is 18HD.(meaning if a monster has 19HD he is immune to your turns)

Now here are some "normal" monsters
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/skeleton.htm
A CR 7 skeleton has 15-17 HD.
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/mummy.htm
A CR 5 mummy has 8 HD
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/wight.htm
A CR 3 Wight has 4 HD
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/wraith.htm
A CR 5 Wraith has 5 HD
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/zombie.htm
A CR 5 Zombie has 15-16 HD

Now there are many ways to add to the CR of a monster
http://www.d20srd.org/indexes/improvingMonsters.htm
One of those ways is to add HD to the monster to increase the CR.
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/improvingMonsters.htm#addingHitDice
From the table there.
undead get +1 CR per 4 HD added.
So if they choose this way even a 1 CR increase in the skeleotn would push that skeleton above the maximum HD you could turn.

[Qwanderer]

I think a big problem with turn undead is the way undead are handled in this game.

There are several quests where undead are pretty much the ONLY thing you fight. Delera's is a prime example, but there are other quests or dungeons where undead are the sole thing you face off against. (entire littany series, pretty much every quest in house J, ect...)

This basically means that if they improved turning to be alot more effective than it is now, these kinds of quests would be made into jokes. This is probably somthing the developers don't want to happen so they are trying to balance the ability to only work occasionally.

What sucks though is that even if you are specced to be a turning character, you arn't that effective. Game design decision? Maybe they need to stop designing quests where it's room full of skeletons, room with zombies and wraiths, then more skeletons, skeleton mages, wights, wight priests, oh more skeletons. A spectre, more skeletons... ect ect ect.

They should mix it up a bit so that if you were to spec to be a turning character you would be extrememly effective on certain parts of quests, but not so overpowered as you would face other non-undead enemies aswell. (no balance issues) This additionally would mean that if you were just using turn undead occasionally, it might still actually work, just not nearly as often as sombody who specced fully for it.

My 10th level cleric has used turn undead in the past. Whenever I play a dungeon that is one or two levels below my level it generally works fairly often, not always, but there are some low level mobs that it never fails to kill or fear. So when I'm the highest level character in an instance thats level 8 or less, it's uber. As soon as I go beyond that or even those lower level instances on hard or elite, turning basically does nothing. I'm not really specced for turning, but I do have a charisma of 20 and I built this character with the idea of turning in mind. I've been disapointed with it ever since character creation.

In PnP D&D, turning undead can be a very powerful ability. There are some encounters where it can easily be the single most powerful thing to do. Other times when facing off against undead with turn resistance or excessive hitdice, it doesn't work so well. Problem with DDO is that it seems every mob has turn resistance and huge HD so there are never any good times to use it. You pretty much always have to roll really really well for it to work.

[Skaves]

I think the issue here is that is doesn't always work. I have a couple of clerics with moderate turning ability, and quite often I do turn the undead. On occasion I fail, but I'd say at levels 1-8 turning does work well if you are not running quests above your level. Since the practice is to run Deleras at 5th-6th though (and parts of the quest are 8th) yes, turning falls short.

I count success as affecting the undead. With the latest incarnation of turning, the undead tend to run around like crazy for 10-20 seconds and then crouch down and cover their faces. (What my wife calls the "****in' Stance".) If you use the turn, then ignore the sparkly turned undead as they run around, you can clean up the rest, then go after the "****in' Dead."

Of course now most of my guild refers to turned undead like this, and I have to endure gleeful shouts of "He's ****in'! He's ****in'! False alarm." in undead quests. Once our All cleric 32pt party gets rolling this will be a funny Catacombs or Delera's run.

Edit: Okay so appearantly the G rated version of word for "dropping the kids off at the pool" is blocked as well. It really wasn't a "bad word". Anyone who knows the three panel cat picture from Fark.com or "Can I has a cheezburger" should know what I'm blathering on about.

[JosephKell]

if they implemented Turning exactly as it was in PnP, then the weakest are turned first. And even then only 2d6+Turner Level of Hit Dice.

The real reason Divine Light is better is because it affects all undead in the area.

Sure Divine Light 1 isn't that powerful (4d6, will save for half), but it always seems to roll 20-21 for me and it hits everything. If I am hitting 10 things (which on parts of Delera I do) that is ~200 damage with my Paladin.

However, I wish the Turn Radius were matching to PnP (60 ft burst centered on Turner). But, I imagine being able to Divine Light everything within 60 feet might be a bit much (I think that Dryden's chamber is about 30-40 feet across, so a radius almost double that).

[KristovK]

I see this complaint all the time, can't turn undead with my 'insert build here', Turbine needs to fix this broken feat!

Only..it ain't broke..it's just working as it should, which isn't exactly what people seem to think it should be.

You can't destroy any undead unless you have twice the level vs it's HD..ie - 1st level cleric can't destroy anything with 1 full HD, while a 10th cleric can only destroy undead with 5HD or less. That's HIT DICE, not CR...big difference between the two and people get them confused constantly. Ziggy gives a nice break down of some standard CRs for undead, which clearly show that capped clerics in DDO aren't going to be able to destroy much, even with Sacred items. You can TURN it, but you can't destroy it.

And that little difference is what seems to make so many people think Turn Undead is broken and not working as it should. It does work, works fine and works as it should, that just doesn't happen to be what people think it is. You Turn undead..they stop advancing and cower in fear usually, which is what my own 11th level cleric who isn't spec'd for Turning currently(12 Chr with items, no extra turning feat/enhancements currently, traded them for other feat/enhancements) sees when he's dealing with undead. Only have 1 turn(can't wait for the update that fixes that!) so it's not something he does often, but it works every single time he uses it.

And if you enter Delera's or whatever on Elite...all bets are off. CR isn't the only thing that gets bumped on those, so you can't use those settings for testing whether something works as it should or not. On normal, my 11th cleric(was 8th last time in Delera's..spec'd for DVs at the time, 7 turns) had little problems turning anything in Delera's except the archers(who's HD are just too high period), but on Hard he couldn't turn anything in there except the Arcanes...which have extremely low HD despite the higher CR(which just reinforces the entire CR does not equal HD bit).

[LeslieWest_GuitarGod]

Useless?

Not IMO. I turn the **** undead on the Desert Surface up to and including the Undead Giants in the Reaver Pre-raid.

So you say you can turn Desert and Reaver pre-raid undead.... I have NEVER seen that done. Would you please tell us exactly how you pull that off? Post that build.

[Drfirewater79]

ok normally i would be all about saying yeah i never use turn undead and origionally i based my cleric as a necro (back when i thought this was dnd not a fantasy RPG pretending to be dnd)

however yesterday in Gianthold tor (pre raid) i watched a cleric turn undead the giant skeletons

if i had not seen it with my own two eyes i wouldnt believe it myself

i was shocked

however i still think turns are best put to use giving other clerics and casters mana dv's are what you should be using your turns for anyway

cause if a caster has no mana to crowd control then you lose more mana trying to heal the party and if the caster nukes for the ammount of agro he pulls away from fighters saves you healing too cause his rez will cost less spell points then all the mass heals and full heals you would have to drop on the fighters and there aint a fighter alive that can do 200-400 points of damage per second

(maybe a barb can hit 200 but not a fighter most i have seen is 140 slashing(power attack) -12 holy - 18 greater bane = 170 damage max

my wiz (doing less damage then sorcs) who has one level of rouge (meaning does less damage then a max'd straight wizard) and still does anywhere from 100-500 points of damage vs non ice (or weak against fire) creatures hitting about 10 times per wall extended maximized empowered and i have seen as high as 1200 with a ice ball vs a purple named fire giant champion

[boldarblood]

So you say you can turn Desert and Reaver pre-raid undead.... I have NEVER seen that done. Would you please tell us exactly how you pull that off? Post that build.

Not unusual, seen it a few times on Khyber. It's just that most clerics are not specced out for it and the rest save there Turn Undead for DV's and Divine Healing.

[A_Sheep]

Yep. Turn Undead loses its usefulness as you try to take on things of a higher level than you, which is what most people in DDO try to do, so I think it's fair to say that turn undead is not very useful in DDO. (but not broken)

[Gangwulfe]

All you need to do is watch the CR of monsters. A High Cha Pal will turn Cr 14 -16 Things with ease.

I have turned the giant skelies easily in madstone, and when doing the undead room in PoP, I have turned the room there also.

Gang

[Ithrani]

if they implemented Turning exactly as it was in PnP, then the weakest are turned first. And even then only 2d6+Turner Level of Hit Dice.

The real reason Divine Light is better is because it affects all undead in the area.

Sure Divine Light 1 isn't that powerful (4d6, will save for half), but it always seems to roll 20-21 for me and it hits everything. If I am hitting 10 things (which on parts of Delera I do) that is ~200 damage with my Paladin.

However, I wish the Turn Radius were matching to PnP (60 ft burst centered on Turner). But, I imagine being able to Divine Light everything within 60 feet might be a bit much (I think that Dryden's chamber is about 30-40 feet across, so a radius almost double that).

It is lowest first. My mistake.