RAIDS today and then...

[swooshrp]

So now we have 5 major raid events all with their own flagging quests. The troublesome part of this is that now Reavers Fate only takes a one time flagging and all other raids require reflagging just to run the quests again. What does this do to the game?

1) High end (top end atm) loot in Reavers Fate is repeated over and over and now all other raids are second nature.

2) The level difference between these raids are so minor that one does not bother with "old" raids.

3) New players will rarely see any of other required reflagging raids as old players show no interest.

4) Some reflaggins attempts are so drawn out that its not worth the effort in comparison to Reavers Fate in time spent and end reward.

This all falls back on risk vs reward. Why would one want to spend the effort if they can get something better in less effort.

I call for Turbine to make all raids a one time flagging like they have for the Reavers Fate. New toons and guildie requests will still ensure that flagging quests are repeated on a volunateer basis.

[Gimpster]

3) New players will rarely see any of other required reflagging raids as old players show no interest.
If Reaver's Fate had a single weapon even 1/3 as good as the Sword of Shadows, you might have a point.

[chimerasplice]

Still though. 6+ hours of questing for only a CHANCE at good loot. This is not even busy work, it is just tedious. They may as well make the raids only once per character, and make us level a new guy to 14 every time we want to run the quest. Apparantly the key to raiding according to this game is forcing replay of old content. Thats a good way to ensure more people quit the game than already have. Still pretty sure I am not renewing my subscription next week. I am not into having to play more to key myself for a raid each time I want to run it than actually doing the raid. And judging by the still falling subscription rates, hardly anyone else does either. Lucky that this company does not care what people think, or it would actually have to do some work to get customers and actually make money.

[Gimpster]

Still though. 6+ hours of questing for only a CHANCE at good loot.
There is not one raid in DDO which requires even 2 hours of questing.

If you're a noob, or a lowbie, or otherwise not well-prepared then it may take longer. But an experienced group of under 6 players can beat any raid boss in under 120 minutes.

Obviously, Stormreaver and Titan are the fastest. But the others can be fast too.

[tihocan]

Personally I'd have the Reaver on a longer timer (say 7 days). So that people take time to flag and do other raids in the meantime ;)

[Cuchilo]

There is not one raid in DDO which requires even 2 hours of questing.

If you're a noob, or a lowbie, or otherwise not well-prepared then it may take longer. But an experienced group of under 6 players can beat any raid boss in under 120 minutes.

Obviously, Stormreaver and Titan are the fastest. But the others can be fast too.

Your characters are all dragon and DQ ready due to favor or something I take it? While 6 hours may be a slight exaggeration for VON1-6 or for the four required quests to get into the DQ raid, you certainly can't do either of em in 120 minutes either.

[Elfvyra]

So now we have 5 major raid events all with their own flagging quests. The troublesome part of this is that now Reavers Fate only takes a one time flagging and all other raids require reflagging just to run the quests again. What does this do to the game?

....

Sorry, but what reflagging do I have to do for the Titan? I mean other than talking to the NPC to get my Sigil 'repaired'...

[Spookydodger]

I think if people were so darn worried about getting rewards, perhaps they should play Real Life 1.0 and start up a company. Huge rewards there.

In the mean time, run the raids that you want because they are interesting. Though, personally, I think the Titan raid is more annoying than anything else simply because of the end boss.

[Gimpster]

Your characters are all dragon and DQ ready due to favor or something I take it? While 6 hours may be a slight exaggeration for VON1-6 or for the four required quests to get into the DQ raid, you certainly can't do either of em in 120 minutes either.

I can and I do. With a group of four players:
VON1: 8 minutes
VON2: 7 minutes
VON3: 3+11 minutes = 14
VON4: 12 minutes
VON5: 41 minutes
VON6: 6 minutes
VON1-6 total: 88 minutes, plus 1-3 minutes running time between each. Even though some of the party takes longer to run (they stop to fix weapons or something), whoever gets there first starts immediately.

Offering of Blood: 6 minutes
Wizard-king: 13 minutes
Chains of Flame: 26 minutes
Laliat's Court: 34 minutes
Circle of Eternity: 7 minutes
Demon Queen total: 86 minutes, plus a total of 12 more minutes running across the desert.

FYI, the other raids:
Twilight Forge 3-man: 48 minutes
Twilight Forge 6-man: 35 minutes
Titan Awakes 6-man: 9 minutes

Reaver's Fate: 12 minutes

[sirgog]

Any chance of a video of those times? Not that I don't believe you, but I'd love to see how you get thru the Qs that quickly, and what I can learn from it. Post 'em on YouTube and you get to help me and show off at the same time!

[Madmardigan]

von 1-4 shouldent take more than an hour, even with a low level/skilled group. and Von 5-6 shouldent take more than an hour combined.

[kingzero]

I can and I do. With a group of four players:
VON1: 8 minutes
VON2: 7 minutes
VON3: 3+11 minutes = 14
VON4: 12 minutes
VON5: 41 minutes
VON6: 6 minutes
VON1-6 total: 88 minutes, plus 1-3 minutes running time between each. Even though some of the party takes longer to run (they stop to fix weapons or something), whoever gets there first starts immediately.

Offering of Blood: 6 minutes
Wizard-king: 13 minutes
Chains of Flame: 26 minutes
Laliat's Court: 34 minutes
Circle of Eternity: 7 minutes
Demon Queen total: 86 minutes, plus a total of 12 more minutes running across the desert.

FYI, the other raids:
Twilight Forge 3-man: 48 minutes
Twilight Forge 6-man: 35 minutes
Titan Awakes 6-man: 9 minutes

Reaver's Fate: 12 minutes

Granted VON 1-4 can be run quickly....

But no way in hell you are running all the rest of these quests that quickly. I dont care what you have or how UBER you think you are.

There are circumstance to everything. The game takes time, the quests take time.

Are you taking into consideration the amount of prep time you are taking so when you run to each quests you dont need to make stops?

SOME of us have children, dogs, wives, and the need to go to the bathroom every once and awhile.

Get off your cross and use the lumber to build a bridge.

Or go play in traffic. Obviously you are far superior to everyone else and should be able to avoid all the cars due to your UBER-ness.

/rant


So yea, I dont believe you. Produce me a video of you running Reavers Fate in 12 minutes. I would surely like to know how you do it.

[Gimpster]

There are circumstance to everything. The game takes time, the quests take time.
Yes, they do take time. To see how much time, check the lists I included above.


Are you taking into consideration the amount of prep time you are taking so when you run to each quests you dont need to make stops?
Prep time?
Demon Queen: Get the Holy bow from the bank, and buy 300 Cold Iron arrows. Check.
Titan: Get the Adamantine Returning Dagger from the bank, fix the sigil with Osler, and swap in Greater Teleport and Dimension Door. Check.
Stormreaver: Swap in the Banishment and Tumble spells. Check.

Aside from those 1-2 minute things, there's nothing needed as prep beyond the items you'd carry around for any random quest.


So yea, I dont believe you. Produce me a video of you running Reavers Fate in 12 minutes. I would surely like to know how you do it.
What? Why would I bother making a video of something that's just normal?
Look, in Reaver's Fate you have a countdown timer. You have a maximum of about 20 minutes before the whole building explodes. 15 minutes is about the longest it takes anyone, and depending on luck with how the orbs get zapped it can be quite a bit faster (although that is uncontrollable).

You can notice this even if you don't go in the raid. Often I'll be off someplace else and see multiple characters on the same account beat Reaver's Fate 2-3 times within an hour. Those people are running the raid back-to-back, switching to different alts each time.


So yea, I dont believe you. Produce me a video of you running Reavers Fate in 12 minutes. I would surely like to know how you do it.
How? Nothing special.
Everyone goes inside, buffs with Tumble, Resist Lightning, Displacement, and whatever. Go up and warriors attack the giant. When elementals come, clerics and wizards fight them with Finger, Destruction, Banishment, and Sphere of Dancing. When you bonk into the ceiling, heal up and fall back down. When someone starts flying, he goes through the spike tunnel and pulls a lever for the puzzle room. Everyone else kills the giant, then goes into the puzzle room and one person plays Mastermind while the others kill elementals.

Nothing about that takes a particular amount of time. There is one big giant, and about 45 elementals who you insta-kill with a lot of spells. That's maybe 10 minutes, then another 2 minutes for a puzzle game.

I don't know how you'd make the quest take longer if you tried.

[Shecky]

Granted VON 1-4 can be run quickly....

But no way in hell you are running all the rest of these quests that quickly. I dont care what you have or how UBER you think you are.

There are circumstance to everything. The game takes time, the quests take time.

Are you taking into consideration the amount of prep time you are taking so when you run to each quests you dont need to make stops?

SOME of us have children, dogs, wives, and the need to go to the bathroom every once and awhile.

Get off your cross and use the lumber to build a bridge.

Or go play in traffic. Obviously you are far superior to everyone else and should be able to avoid all the cars due to your UBER-ness.

/rant


So yea, I dont believe you. Produce me a video of you running Reavers Fate in 12 minutes. I would surely like to know how you do it.


You I like. I'll be out on the verandah, since some people are already on the cross... :D

[scorn_the_infallible]

gimpster your von 2 time is rather long


i do it in 4 min :)




dragon and dq still have great items everyone wants

[kingzero]

Yes, they do take time. To see how much time, check the lists I included above.


Prep time?
Demon Queen: Get the Holy bow from the bank, and buy 300 Cold Iron arrows. Check.
Titan: Get the Adamantine Returning Dagger from the bank, fix the sigil with Osler, and swap in Greater Teleport and Dimension Door. Check.
Stormreaver: Swap in the Banishment and Tumble spells. Check.

Aside from those 1-2 minute things, there's nothing needed as prep beyond the items you'd carry around for any random quest.


What? Why would I bother making a video of something that's just normal?
Look, in Reaver's Fate you have a countdown timer. You have a maximum of about 20 minutes before the whole building explodes. 15 minutes is about the longest it takes anyone, and depending on luck with how the orbs get zapped it can be quite a bit faster (although that is uncontrollable).

You can notice this even if you don't go in the raid. Often I'll be off someplace else and see multiple characters on the same account beat Reaver's Fate 2-3 times within an hour. Those people are running the raid back-to-back, switching to different alts each time.


How? Nothing special.
Everyone goes inside, buffs with Tumble, Resist Lightning, Displacement, and whatever. Go up and warriors attack the giant. When elementals come, clerics and wizards fight them with Finger, Destruction, Banishment, and Sphere of Dancing. When you bonk into the ceiling, heal up and fall back down. When someone starts flying, he goes through the spike tunnel and pulls a lever for the puzzle room. Everyone else kills the giant, then goes into the puzzle room and one person plays Mastermind while the others kill elementals.

Nothing about that takes a particular amount of time. There is one big giant, and about 45 elementals who you insta-kill with a lot of spells. That's maybe 10 minutes, then another 2 minutes for a puzzle game.

I don't know how you'd make the quest take longer if you tried.

I stand corrected. Probably just the groups Ive been in that have taken longer than 4 minutes.

[Grammaton_Cleric]

I can and I do. With a group of four players:
VON1: 8 minutes
VON2: 7 minutes
VON3: 3+11 minutes = 14
VON4: 12 minutes
VON5: 41 minutes
VON6: 6 minutes
VON1-6 total: 88 minutes, plus 1-3 minutes running time between each. Even though some of the party takes longer to run (they stop to fix weapons or something), whoever gets there first starts immediately.

Offering of Blood: 6 minutes
Wizard-king: 13 minutes
Chains of Flame: 26 minutes
Laliat's Court: 34 minutes
Circle of Eternity: 7 minutes
Demon Queen total: 86 minutes, plus a total of 12 more minutes running across the desert.

FYI, the other raids:
Twilight Forge 3-man: 48 minutes
Twilight Forge 6-man: 35 minutes
Titan Awakes 6-man: 9 minutes

Reaver's Fate: 12 minutes


Agreed for most part: Without getting into specifics, I think the point is that there is no raid (keying included) that should take longer than 2 hours. I can't even remember the last time I was actually on a FULL raid. They are usually 4-6 man runs. If you brought all 12, you can definitely complete in less than 2 hours.

It's not about uber weapons, it's about having the right weapons for the right scenario. Maximize your damage output with the correct alignment and banes. The only "kill all" uber weapon in the game is the SOS. You don't have to fight everything in order to complete a quest.

[Vhlad]

Granted VON 1-4 can be run quickly....

But no way in hell you are running all the rest of these quests that quickly. I dont care what you have or how UBER you think you are.

There are circumstance to everything. The game takes time, the quests take time.

Are you taking into consideration the amount of prep time you are taking so when you run to each quests you dont need to make stops?

SOME of us have children, dogs, wives, and the need to go to the bathroom every once and awhile.

Get off your cross and use the lumber to build a bridge.

Or go play in traffic. Obviously you are far superior to everyone else and should be able to avoid all the cars due to your UBER-ness.

/rant


So yea, I dont believe you. Produce me a video of you running Reavers Fate in 12 minutes. I would surely like to know how you do it.


His numbers aren't even optimal (but his group is not full). Reavers fate can be done in under 12 minutes. Von4 can definitely be done quicker (7 mins). Laliat's court = under 20 minutes.

I hereby prescribe 12 raids a week for a number of weeks sufficient enough for you to get l33t raid times.

[Gennerik]

Agreed for most part: Without getting into specifics, I think the point is that there is no raid (keying included) that should take longer than 2 hours. I can't even remember the last time I was actually on a FULL raid. They are usually 4-6 man runs. If you brought all 12, you can definitely complete in less than 2 hours.

Huh? How can you say that? Raids take so much longer to run with a full raid group, it's not even funny. I'd rather run the Dragon or the Titan with 6 or less any day. You don't have to worry about people going off on their own, monsters running all over the place from party member to party member, nothing. It's a lot easier to coordinate 6 than it is 12.

[Madmardigan]

Huh? How can you say that? Raids take so much longer to run with a full raid group, it's not even funny. I'd rather run the Dragon or the Titan with 6 or less any day. You don't have to worry about people going off on their own, monsters running all over the place from party member to party member, nothing. It's a lot easier to coordinate 6 than it is 12.

I agree, most raids are easier with 5-7 people than full groups, because 1. There are less people to have all on the same page, and 2. there are less people that the clerics need to worry about healing.

[Gimpster]

Huh? How can you say that? Raids take so much longer to run with a full raid group, it's not even funny. I'd rather run the Dragon or the Titan with 6 or less any day.
Most importantly, the Dragon, Titan, and Stormreaver raids all have failure conditions where a player who attacks and damages something at the wrong time can fail your mission.

Queen Laliat has nothing like that (unless you talk to the queen before the others warp in), but it is a fairly simple question of killing Monster X with enough damage. The other 3 raids all have puzzle aspects where a player who can't hold back his DPS may ruin you.