Humans, PnP vs. DDO

[Olaff]

So, I was thinking about this the other day:

One of the biggest reasons to choose a Human character in PnP does not exist in DDO, and that is the capability to multiclass almost without restriction because of the way the Favored Class rules work. A Human's (and a Half-Elf's, as well) Favored Class is the highest class level which has been achieved. ALL other races (save the aforementioned Half-Elves) are restricted to a particular class. So, for example, Amaenda, my Drow Barbarian/Fighter, would be taking an XP penalty in PnP, because neither Barbarian nor Fighter are her favored classes. Had I built Amaenda as a Human, this would not be the case.

But how to implement such in DDO, in order to give Humans this game-balancing racial ability? There's been quite a bit of discussion on the matter, both for and against implementing an XP penalty. IMO an XP penalty in this game, where XP is basically unlimited, is pointless. So... how to implement this feature?

This is likely to cause a huge flame war, but bear with me, as I'm just tossing out a suggestion by way of getting conversation going. Please, keep it civil, I'm not trying to suggest this is the ONLY way to do things:

What if races other than Human were *prevented* from raising non-favored-classes to levels such that there's a gap of more than 1 level between them? In PnP, the XP penalty only takes effect if the non-favored-classes have a gap of two or more levels between them (this allows said classes to be raised, back and forth, without penalty). In DDO, where XP is limitless, the only way (as I see it) to implement the Favored Class system would be to simply not allow non-FCs to be raised if raising them would create such a level gap.

So, Amaenda would be completely unable to exist in her current format. Christov, however, would be completely legal: His FC is Ranger (his highest class) and the other two classes in his makeup, Fighter and Rogue, are within 1 level of each other.

The downside to this, of course, is that a large number of interesting and fun builds become illegal. I would suggest that current characters be grandfathered, if such a system were put in place, because it would be inherently unfair to current players who have invested time and effort if that time and effort were suddenly rendered impotent.

The upside is that Humans regain what is, arguably, one of their most defining class traits. Free feat? Eh... in PnP that's a far bigger deal than in DDO, because Enhancements tend to be more powerful by the latter stages of the game. Free skill point? Eh... Drow get that, too, by way of their innately higher Intelligence. Enhancements? Nice, but geared towards multiclassing...and let's face it, other races' enhancements are superior when taken as a whole.

Like I said, controversial idea. Try not to flame too much. ;)

[Richtenfaust]

Controversial and impossible to implement without resetting the whole game. Grandfathering would be unfair to current and new players because it would hault a person's progression on certain builds to adhere to the new rules and certain "illegal" builds are significantly more potent than the various "legal" ones.On the other side of the coin, the Devs aren't about to give anyone a full character respec. Look at how rare shards are to know what they think of it. Let alone a 1-14 respec from stats up.

I'm not sure why people still feel humans need further "balancing." I think the dragonmarks (humans getting the best choices, in my opinion, between the Mark of the Sentinel and Mark of Passage) as well as the changes they have in the works for 4.2 and 5.0 are stellar improvements. Look at what they are going to do with Human Versatility!! You can choose Armor, Attack, Damage, Skills, or Saves on the fly! That gives them a significant advantage. I'm already working up a solid Human Paladin build.

Without turning this game into every other "only certain races can be certain classes" MMO out there, it just isn't feasible to implement any sort of multiclass restriction based on D&D 3.5. Heck, I don't even remember the last DM I played under that adhered strictly to those restrictions, anyway.

Good post, good argument, but you should find a more worthy cause.

[Borror0]

I think that favored class must simply added by enhancements.

Currently, best implementation of this are dwarves, they are sadly the only good example of it. Elves should get Metamagic enhancements, halflings should get better rogue enhancements (Hide and Move Silently do not count!). Human would get a bit of each, but only a few and maybe only the first tier, maybe the second. The tricky part be Drows as males favor Sorcerers and females Clerics.

These enhancements could be feat based. Take a feat and it unlocks X or Y enhancement. The chosen feat must be a feat that is taken mostly by that class. That would make human more MC friendly.

[Roguewiz]

I think that favored class must simply added by enhancements.

Currently, best implementation of this are dwarves, they are sadly the only good example of it. Elves should get Metamagic enhancements, halflings should get better rogue enhancements (Hide and Move Silently do not count!). Human would get a bit of each, but only a few and maybe only the first tier, maybe the second. The tricky part be Drows as males favor Sorcerers and females Clerics.

These enhancements could be feat based. Take a feat and it unlocks X or Y enhancement. The chosen feat must be a feat that is taken mostly by that class. That would make human more MC friendly.

I think the Drow thing does not apply to Ebberon. I believe the both favor sorcerers and have no alignment restrictions.

I could be wrong.

[DelScorcho]

I do like the suggestion, because it would strengthen Humans as a multi-class character, and give humans one type of clearly advantageous build, similar to dwarves with everything, and drow with everything else. However, the implementation would be catastrophic, as it would break too many existing builds. Most of the Human Versitility anger was over the fact that the game change effectively broke several builds, and no respec option was given. Here, a change that sweeping would obviously break a large number of existing builds.

Grandfathering builds doesn't seem to be a solution, because one of the major strengths of this game is character design and customization. A major feature of character design is the fact that someone else can create the exact same character if they made the same choices and had the same access to resources (1750 favor, equipment, $$$). They may not be able to play it as well, but they can roll up a mirror image of your character, and learn how to play it with their own style. I can't see how restricting these hybrid builds to currently existing characters would aid the game as a whole. It would also divide the "haves" and "have-nots" of the game further.

I applaud the suggestion, because it seems a better solution for the current weakness of humans than adding attack, ac, and saving throw boosts to human versitility. However, without a full respec for broken builds, I don't see this as working.

[Klattuu]

While your idea may have merit, it is something that needed to be developed 2 years ago. This one has to be filed into the 'too late to implement' box.

Now while you may argue that 1 extra feat and 1 extra skill point per level is not enough to differentiate the humans from everyone else and make them more attractive, the data does not really prove this out. In looking at the makeup of our guild (mid-sized) as a survey sampling, humans have a much higher frequency than any other race.

Regardless, you cannot make one race stronger by nerfing every other race and you cannot revert builds to an illegal status. Both are bad business decisions.

The only practical option is to beef up the humans. But as I said, I don't think that is needed as it seems humans, while not the hands-down favorite of the min/max build crowd, seems to be still the most attractive race in the game.

[MysticTheurge]

One of the biggest reasons to choose a Human character in PnP does not exist in DDO

I generally find the reason most of my players choose Humans is the extra feat, generally because it gives access to a chosen PrC anywhere from 1-3 levels earlier.

[Olaff]

Sorry for the long post, but I felt the need to respond to many comments. :) Thanks for the feedback!


...Grandfathering would be unfair to current and new players because it would hault a person's progression on certain builds to adhere to the new rules and certain "illegal" builds are significantly more potent than the various "legal" ones. ...

I'm not sure why people still feel humans need further "balancing." I think the dragonmarks (humans getting the best choices, in my opinion, between the Mark of the Sentinel and Mark of Passage) as well as the changes they have in the works for 4.2 and 5.0 are stellar improvements. Look at what they are going to do with Human Versatility!! You can choose Armor, Attack, Damage, Skills, or Saves on the fly! That gives them a significant advantage. I'm already working up a solid Human Paladin build.

Without turning this game into every other "only certain races can be certain classes" MMO out there, it just isn't feasible to implement any sort of multiclass restriction based on D&D 3.5. Heck, I don't even remember the last DM I played under that adhered strictly to those restrictions, anyway.



Over time, illegal builds would filter themselves out of the game through attrition. Any character in existence at the time of the change would be able to continue to advance as they desired - the character as a whole would be unaffected by the new rules. At least, in my perfect world, that's how it'd work. ;)

I'm not sure the new HV is as advantageous as you think. It's certainly nice to have, and it'll give my one Human character that has it more flexibility, but I suspect most current Humans will not respec their enhancements just to take it. Useful, definitely, but it hardly brings Humans inline with Dwarves ( for example). As for Dragonmarks... you can still have only one, and again, while useful, hardly the panacea you're making them out to be.

What 5.0 improvements? PM me if there's an NDA or they're not for general knowledge, 'cause now I'm curious. :)

Every DM I played under followed those racial restrictions...


I think that favored class must simply added by enhancements.

...Human would get a bit of each, but only a few and maybe only the first tier, maybe the second. ...

These enhancements could be feat based. Take a feat and it unlocks X or Y enhancement. The chosen feat must be a feat that is taken mostly by that class. That would make human more MC friendly.

I think you might be on to something here, though it pains me to admit it. ;) I don't know that Enhancements should be feat-based (save the Dragonmark enhancements, and they're working as they should), however. Perhaps, however, a Human could be eligible for any non-Human racial enhancement they wanted to take, only two levels after the non-Human can take it (somewhat similar to how Adaptability works already)? Or, allow it at whatever level is normal for a character of that race, but restrict a Human character to take only one Combat, one Skill, and one Magic enhancement total from any non-Human racial enhancement list? Human Flexibility (Combat), HF (Skill), HF (Magic)...


I applaud the suggestion, because it seems a better solution for the current weakness of humans than adding attack, ac, and saving throw boosts to human versitility. However, without a full respec for broken builds, I don't see this as working.

I would not force a respec... I would simply disallow future builds of the same type. Current characters would be unaffected.


...it is something that needed to be developed 2 years ago. This one has to be filed into the 'too late to implement' box.

...

Regardless, you cannot make one race stronger by nerfing every other race and you cannot revert builds to an illegal status. Both are bad business decisions.

The only practical option is to beef up the humans. But as I said, I don't think that is needed as it seems humans, while not the hands-down favorite of the min/max build crowd, seems to be still the most attractive race in the game.

I'll agree it's a decision that should have been made from the beginning, and I'll further admit that it's not likely to be implemented now. Dialogue is still a good thing, however. :) I don't know that I see restricting non-human races' ability to multiclass as a "nerf," though I suspect many will. And I think that while certain builds becoming illegal would be met with resistance, if current builds were grandfathered, I think the resistance would be far lower. Still, many popular builds would be entirely unaffected, as this affects only non-human multiclasses; pure classes aren't restricted in any fashion. Also, any multiclass that uses one of that races' FCs would be similarly unaffected, even if that class was not the primary component of the multiclass.


I generally find the reason most of my players choose Humans is the extra feat, generally because it gives access to a chosen PrC anywhere from 1-3 levels earlier.

But then, those also do not exist in DDO, so that's kind of a moot point. Not that I'm disagreeing with you, by any means; I think feats are far more meaningful in PnP than in DDO, however, for the reason you mention, and because Enhancements don't exist.