In Developement: New Spells and Enhancements for 4.2

[Coldin]

You obviously aren't getting my point, because you are claiming that the bard's ability to affect everyone else's DC somehow makes my point foundless. That ability will only make bards more popular, and it is an excess of popularity that I am worried about.

You'll understand when your wizard gets turned down for a caster spot in a PUG because the group leader wants a bard.

I keep my list of characters in my sig for a reason. ;) I'd probably be the one replacing the wizard.

But wizards and sorcerers are going to have a place in the party anyway, and no group would take more than 1 bard b/c bard songs don't stack. I might see a point if bard popularity was taking jobs away from rangers/rogues, but you're saying casters will be out of a job, and really that's just never going to happen.

[Freeman]

Ok...I did just that for you already...Dancing Ball. Level 5 Bard spell, level 7 Wiz/Sorc spell. Costs less for the Bard to cast and has a DC 2 lower then the Wiz/Sorc version of the same spell, and the Bard and Wiz both get it at level 13 while the Sorc doesn't get it until level 14. I'd rather count on a Wiz or Sorc casting of that spell then a Bard, 2 points on a DC is the difference between an 18 required compared to a 20.

Actually, bards get it at level 10, since it is a 4th level spell for them. That means it is 3 DC lower than a wizard or sorc. Heightened it is only 2 DC lower though, once the bard hits 13.

And I don't see Raithe's point either, really. The bard song will benefit every spellcaster in the party, making them all more effective. There's still no way for a bard to beat a wizard or sorc's spell DC, assuming no feats or items are factored in. At best, a bard can currently only hope to achieve roughly the same DC with one line of spells(Usually enchantment). The only reason a bard can do that is because a bard can afford to specialize in one type of spell far more than a wizard or sorceror.

[Raithe]

I'd rather count on a Wiz or Sorc casting of that spell then a Bard, 2 points on a DC is the difference between an 18 required compared to a 20.

A bard with heighten and spellsinger can eventually hit the same DC and retain a lower cost than the wizard or sorceror. The one spell you found that was different actually doesn't do anything to counter my argument.

[wiglin]

Isn't that exactly what my post stated? Only you forgot to mention that 1 lower level = 5 less spell points.



Yes, I already stipulated that wizards and sorcerors get higher level spells. That means they cost more as well as having a higher DC. It's really more appropriate to compare spells of the same level (where some bards will have a higher DC than other casters) or compare identical spells (where some bards will have equivalent DCs but their spells will cost significantly less).


Actually it would be more appropriate to compare these with the heighten spell feat. Which raise the DC of the spell to the highest DC available to your current level. (Which by the next level cap increase or two will be needed to land any of the CC spells.)

For Bards this will eventually be level 6

For Wizard's and Sorcerer's this will eventually be level 9

Sure the bard saves some spell points, but with another level cap increase the 3 DC difference is more important than costing less when you have to cast it more times to land. Currently alot of spells land without heighten, but as the game progresses this will not be so.

Also last I check Bards (even with spellsinger) have less SP than Wizards who have alot less than Sorcerer's. So the costing less for Bards is balanced by the fact they have less SP's.

Bards are 3/4 casters just as much as they are 3/4 fighters, when it comes down to it a good Bard brings synergy to the whole group. Anything they do to increase themselves will also increase the party they are in.

[wiglin]

A bard with heighten and spellsinger can eventually hit the same DC and retain a lower cost than the wizard or sorceror. The one spell you found that was different actually doesn't do anything to counter my argument.

Only if the bard is the only caster in a party, but the odds are their will be a wizard or a sorcerer, so spell singer will raise their DC by 1 as well.

[Raithe]

and no group would take more than 1 bard b/c bard songs don't stack.

"No group" is a little excessive, but I get the point. No one usually takes more than 1 rogue, either. I would actually like to keep that type of balance in place for all classes.

These enhancements may make it so you start seeing multi-bard groups along with all the paladin/sorceror groups.

[Coldin]

These enhancements may make it so you start seeing multi-bard groups along with all the paladin/sorceror groups.

Maybe, but only in the sense that you'll have a bard with Spellsinger, another with Virtuoso, and a third with Warchanter. Would that be any worse than a group going in with 3 tanks, or 3 mages?

[sabs]

I have a question..

the nightshield spell. What will that Resist bonus stack with?

[Aesop]

I have a question..

the nightshield spell. What will that Resist bonus stack with?

It is a Resistance Bonus

so... Paladin Aura
Luck Bonuses
Morale Bonuses

that's about it

it won't stack with Shrunken Head, Spectacular Spectacles, or Cloaks of Resistance or any other Resistance Bonus based Save bonus.

Aesop

[Raithe]

Maybe, but only in the sense that you'll have a bard with Spellsinger, another with Virtuoso, and a third with Warchanter. Would that be any worse than a group going in with 3 tanks, or 3 mages?

It's worse because people only get to choose a class at the very beginning of the game. Everyone who didn't choose the current "class of the hour" starts being excluded.

I guess it's all fine if you want people to keep rerolling, but people will get tired of that game (they already have). I'm still looking for DDO to show some continuity and minor dedication to roleplaying, myself.

[MysticTheurge]

Like boosting spells that do d6 damage to do 5 avg instead of 3.5? And spells using a d8 doing 5.5 instead of 4.5 And of course, spells with d4 do 3.5 avg instead of 2.5

Like that?

No. What amounts to a 25-50% increase in damage is insufficient, even paired with the other methods we have for up to 90% increase in damage, to balance out the enemies' 500-1000% increase in HPs.


How can I get level 2 spell as level 4 pally? That would be awesome!

Ah you got me. I typo'd. Mea culpa and all that. So now fix the sentence to read "2nd level spell" and "8th level paladin" and pretty much everything else stays the same.


I know it's not how it works in PnP, in the context of DDO it's PNP implementation would be pointless.

Pretty much every other spell has been implemented to be in keeping with the D&D version of the spell. So why should this be different?


But you're saying have no problem with it blocking Force Missiles right?

I'm saying we had this whole debate a long time ago. And the argument made was that it would suck a lot more for players if Shield didn't block force missiles. And I can kind of see that, so I stopped arguing it.


Im confused does this mean you would replace your +1 (or better) greater bane weapons with a +5 holy for mobs other than DR/good+cold iron?

I'm saying there may be people who are more willing to just use the spell than they are to try and track down greater bane weapons for everything.


I invite players who DON'T post often to maybe take a few minutes to reply to important topics and let their voices be heard.

I'd love for more people to be involved in giving feedback as well.


the nightshield spell. What will that Resist bonus stack with?

Most other Saving Throw bonuses are resistance (almost all items are) so it won't stack with them.

[Conejo]

I have a question..

the nightshield spell. What will that Resist bonus stack with?

doesn't matter. it blocks Magic Missile and (in DDO) Force Missile. anything aside from that is inconsequential.

[Gimpster]

doesn't matter. it blocks Magic Missile and (in DDO) Force Missile. anything aside from that is inconsequential.
No. The +3 resistance bonus on saving throws is much more important, considering how rare it is for a monster to ever cast Magic Missile or Force Missile on you.

Level 14 characters typically have items giving from +3 to +5 resistance bonuses on saving throws. For a cleric to drop down to resistance 3 from 5 and open up that body slot for another item is very attractive, especially when you consider that resistance 5 items are rare and can be traded for something valuable.

[Gimpster]

Pretty much every other spell has been implemented to be in keeping with the D&D version of the spell. So why should this be different?
Because the value of the spell depends on the loot level of the gameworld. Some D&D spells and class abilities essentially function as equipment replacements. In a game world with a level of loot above or below what is recommended in the DMG, you would need to raise or lower the power of those abilities to keep things balanced.

This is most obvious if you consider monks. In a world with no magic items, monks are the best melee class. But with the over-abundant items in DDO, monks would be inferior (unless Tubine buffs them in other ways, which they surely will). Similarly, the Holy Sword spell substitutes for a magic item of a certain level. In the boosted loot of DDO it is less useful than it was in PnP.

[Mad_Bombardier]

Spellsinger will make it so bard's can spend less spell points for the same effectiveness as a high level wizard/sorceror (minus the FoD/Flesh2Stone). This seems a little wrong to me.Let's look shall we?

Otto's Resistable Dance: Spell L1 Bard, Spell L2 Arcane = +1 Arcane DC
Suggestion: L2 Bard, L3 Arcane = +1 Arcane DC
Crushing Despair, Fear: L3 Bard, L4 Arcane = +1 Arcane DC
Dominate Person, Hold Monster: L4 Bard, L5 Arcane = +1 Arcane DC
Otto's Sphere: L4 Bard, L7 Arcane = +3 Arcane DC
Mass Suggestion: L5 Bard, L6 Arcane = +1 Arcane DC

Charm Person, Blindness, Hypnotic Pattern, Mind Fog: all same level = +0 Arcane DC.

BUT, unless the Bard is only singing for himself, hidden in the corner, the song will affect all casters in the Party. So, it stays in favor of Arcane DCs. Next!

[Raithe]

BUT, unless the Bard is only singing for himself, hidden in the corner,

Which a bard is entirely capable of doing, let's not be coy about it. In PvP this is precisely what would happen.



the song will affect all casters in the Party. So, it stays in favor of Arcane DCs. Next!

Regardless of how ridiculous hiding in the corner would be, when it comes down to assessing the balance of classes you would actually give the +1 DC of the wizard or sorceror to the bard. The fact that the bard spell affects everyone in the group is just more incentive to take a bard (or build one) over another class.

[wiglin]

Which a bard is entirely capable of doing, let's not be coy about it.



Regardless of how ridiculous hiding in the corner would be, when it comes down to comparing the balance of classes you would actually give the +1 DC of the wizard or sorceror to the bard. The fact that the bard spell affects everyone in the group is just more incentive to take a bard (or build one) over another class.

The majority of players like to do damage and blow stuff up. At any given time on Fernia their are alot less bards than any other class. An increase in the bard population is not bad thing.

[Spookydodger]

The Spell Compendium version of the spell is 5/evil. I don't know where the 10/evil description is from.


My mistake. I got it from someone else whom I normally trust in this sort of thing. Still, DR5 isn't bad. It's like 10-30 virtual hitpoints more. I still wonder how many things do "evil" damage.



Since DDO Magic Circle Against Evil really does nothing more than cast PfE on everyone near by, it's pretty much the same thing.


Yes. And this is my point. For Paladins, you already get almost everything that PfE from the aura. At least if it was a continual area effect, it would be more useful to those around you, which fits in with the group-benefit lines that Paladins already have with their other Auras.



Also, since Holy Sword overwrites any magical effects on your current weapon, the odd component feature also works pretty much as in D&D with the slight added annoyance of having to carry specially prepared weapons.


Yes, they could do this. However, if they want to implement meaningful boosting spells in the future, they will have to do more than just make poor-man versions that require something silly like stacks of material component weapons. I know it works. I want it to work better. If there isn't a push, there won't be much impetus to do so.



No other damage spell in the game has had it's numbers modified because of enemy hit points why would these be any different?

(Personally, rather than argue for these three spells to be boosted, I'd rather lobby for an overall increase in damage done by damaging spells.


I believe that most damaging spells should be boosted or have the potential. The problem comes in that in order to make your spells damaging enough to compete with inflated hitpoints, one must take the metamagic enhancements. Some classes, of course, do not have access to these. I advocated that this spell has increased damage. I advocate that nearly every spell have more "base" increased damage. More than that, I advocate for the damage to stay the same and hitpoints to go back down to normal. I just did not put that I think every spell should because I was talking about this spell.




Neither clerics nor wizards have a spell that gives a resistance bonus to all saving throws. Clerics have no spell that blocks magic missiles. If there's one spell that I'm excited about it's this one.


Hence why I said "overlap". I said I liked the spell. I'm not jumping off the rafters because let's be honest, there are other spells that do this in general. Again why I said "a lot of overlap". Once you get up there in level, most of the time you're really only failing on a 1. 2 or 3 more points in saves aren't going to make a huge difference.

The force/magic missle defense is nice.
The resistance bonus is nice and stacks with various other things that usually give you moral or luck bonuses.
HOWEVER.
The part that nullifies most of this bonus is that since it's a resistance bonus, it overlaps with items that give resistance bonus. Yes, you could cast this spell and not have to wear your resistance item, but most people don't switch out spells for this.

So perhaps I should have clarified that it is not just overlap with other spells, but overlap with other items, as well.



As for blocking force-missiles, Shield has always done this, and when I made a big fuss about it once everyone told me I was making a big deal over nothing and that it was actually good for the players (which I grew to be convinced of myself).


I wasn't debating that shield has not done this, was I? I'm just curious to see the ramifications of a broad-application spell like this, blocking force-based missiles is. Shield was 1 minute in duration, gave a shield bonus that was largely wasted on otherwise unarmored casters, and was self-only. Good drawbacks for a spell that completely neuters 2 spells, one of them 4th.

Nightshield, however, gives a bonus to something more useful (though often taken care of with items), gives it to 2 categories of characters (wizards/sorcerers + clerics), lasts 1 minute per character level, and can be cast on others.

Another important question would then be: Why would you want to cast Shield unless you were hard up for a few more points of AC?




Circumstance modifiers are a huge bonus, largely because they stack with each other (unless they're from the same source). This spell is essentially a +1 to hit/skills on top of everything else for bards.


I don't think we are in disagreement with this. I think our problem here, Mystic, is that you misinterpret my reactions as displeased or irked, perhaps? Please don't confuse my otherwise underwhelming enthusiasm for being uninterested or unimpressed. I reserve the party streamers for obviously amazing things and for when they have been exposed to actual contact. I am overjoyed at the Destruction spell, for instance. It's wonderful. A great addition.



No, fascinate save is based on perform modifier, as well as your countersong roll.

I'm afraid you misunderstand me, and perhaps intentionally so? I meant that no ability granted comes from your total modifier. For instance, you only get synergy bonuses in PnP from ranks, not total modifiers. That's not true, though. There are certain newer additions to D&D that give tiers of performance, such as the active listener feat (I can't remember the name) that lets you hear the number of creatures, what type they are, and what they had for breakfast 3 days ago if you get a 35 or so. Or the Shugenja that lets you determine exact elemental composition of something on a 35. I suppose Tumble is that way, too. Allowing no AoO on 15, and rolling through an enemy square on 25. However, for the most part, the ability to do something special, that is a separate trained ability, irrespective of natural talent, is based off ranks. I don't know why you rail so heavily against what does not run perpendicular to what you say, but parallel.




They actually probably put them in because it's a pretty standard feature of dragonmark abilities, to be able to gain more uses per day.


Again with the misunderstanding. I didn't say why they were made, I said why they were put in. I know, as do many, why they exist at all. Why they were specifically put in, with little indication before that they would until just recently. You would think, with the obvious steep price of 3 feats in order to cast A spell 1/rest, you would sweeten the deal by saying "we'll be adding in enhancements to give you more uses/rest."



Paladins have no class feature like this. They got the spell from the spell of the same name in the spell compendium.


Ok, this is getting ridiculous. I know there's not a class-feature like this. I Was covering all my bases for any future addition that might come along. Seriously, have you woken up on the wrong side of the bed?



That is not how Holy Sword works in D&D. Yes you can cast it on an existing weapon, but it overwrites and replaces all magical effects which the weapon already has. Adding +2d6 (i.e. Holy) to an existing weapon, on top of everything else the weapon already has, would not be in keeping with the D&D rules for the spell.


Granted. But it would not overwrite the weapon's metallurgical qualities, right? It wouldn't turn adamantine into steel, correct? Additionally, it does make it a +5 Holy Sword. By the way, it doesn't overwrite, it supersedes, as per the Player's Handbook. This is a minor difference, but important to note that the qualities of the weapon before the casting are not destroyed, as "overwrite" would imply. I don't want to nitpick, I want to be absolutely crystal clear, since obviously my lack of that has lead to this in the first place.



A Good and Cold Iron weapon is actually fairly useful against creatures with that sort of DR. Also if it comes down to carrying a greater bane weapon for every time of monster I might ever run across or carrying a small stack (assuming they stack) of these specially prepared Holy Sword weapons, I might do the latter and just sell of my Greater Banes.


I beg to differ in this regard. Bane weapons, with their bonus to hit, wind up being better, in performance, than a simple good+cold-iron weapon, especially when considering that most people wind up running elite missions, at least as far as I normally see. Let's review:

Let's assume that the elite version has DR 15/ good+cold-iron
A +5 Holy Cold-iron greatsword: A +7 total bonus. +5 from +5, +2 from Holy.
vs
A +4 Greatsword of Greater Evil Outsider (GEO) Bane (an assumed +3 bonus. Normal Bane is +1. Going for +3 to make it more than fair)

Hit potential:
+5 Holy Cold-iron greatsword: (normal and GEO to-Hit bonus) +5
+4 Greatsword of GEO Bane: (Normal to hit:) +4 (GEO to-hit) +8.
Damage potential:
+5 Holy Cold-iron greatsword: (normal and GEO damage) 2d6+2d6+5: 9-29
+4 Greatsword of GEO Bane: (Normal) 2d6: 2-12. (GEO Damage): 2d6-(15)+3d6+4: 7-22

This gives us a 2 point min damage, and a 7 max damage benefit for the Holy Cold Iron Greatsword, but under-performance in hitting ability. The Holy Cold-Iron greatsword comes out on top.

Now add in that many bane weapons can most certainly have ANOTHER effect on top of it. From light damage such as an elemental effect to heavier damage from, say, Holy.

Damage potential: (with DR 15 assumed)
+5 Holy Cold-iron greatsword: (normal and GEO damage) 2d6+2d6+5: 9-29
+3 Acid Greatsword of GEO Bane: (Normal) 2d6+1d6: 3-18. (GEO Damage): 2d6-(15)+1d6+3d6+3: 7-27
+2 Holy Greatsword of GEO Bane: (Normal) 2d6: 2-12. (GEO Damage): 2d6-(15)+2d6+3d6+2: 7-32

So the typical weapon carried by someone has a slightly better to-hit with a sligthly inferior damage. For most paladins, you are hurting more from ability to hit, on elite, than damage. Fighters are already outpacing you in both. On the plus side, you can feel more at ease passing out a +5 holy cold-iron sword than something else, but since you would have to carry something that others specialize in, this might get difficult. Certainly it will make the choice to ditch the holy-turkey-leg from deleras out in the beginning that much easier.

This spell will be useful, don't get me wrong. It will make it easier for those without nifty weapons. Seriously, though, I don't loot that much, and I have a few decent bane weapons that are useful in this, with my Paladin.

My main contention isn't as to whether it is better than the weapon, it is that if we are going to start implementing this sort of thing, do it right, from the beginning, rather than this half-arsed implementation that requires small stacks of weapons as fodder! For example, if Evasion had just been implemented right in the first place, they could have avoided so much trouble




I've never understood this "There are other ways to get this ability (or something similar) so this new way to get it is USELESS!!" attitude people seem to have. If you have a Sigil of Earth, then yeah, maybe you'll be using Angel Skin less than other people. But come on, it's a first level spell. That means Paladins can start using it at 4th level. There aren't a lot of 4th level people with access to Sigil of Earth (or even the Stoneskin spell). Yeah it's only 2 more points of DR than Adamantine FP or the Golden Greaves, but it's 2 fewer points of damage every time you get hit. It's really not hard to see how that stacks up over time to a pretty serious effect.


And the more ways to do things, the better. Personally, here is my problem with this duplication in its current state: It's often done in a shabby fashion, and it's done at the expense of fixing things that have been busted for ages

"Here, here's another way to drive to the supermarket!"
"Yes, but I would like a way to fly to the supermarket"
"Driving... huh? Great, right?! Look! 3-wheels *wiggles the front wheel*"
"Not even water-powered?."
"Look, driving!"
"You're not listening, are you..."

It's a nice spell. It's just not great. I love DR. I wear Marrilith (sp?) chain on my cleric all the time. Saves his armored keester. It's highly underrated. And Angel-skin is self-casting, unlike the superior Stoneskin unless you are a UDM monkey (which is hard for Paladins). It's a nice spell. As I said before. Perhaps you misinterpret my "normal enthusiasm" for dislike? I don't know.

[Aesop]

I think my Bard on Thar will be goin Spellsinger... but man the others are tempting... Yeah I could see a three bard 1arcane 1tank 1rogue group... well maybe two tanks and let my Bard handle traps I suppose. Sing our songs let the Virtuoso go forth and make the bad guys drool all over themselves then let the tank widdle down the opposition. :) 3 bards to heal with great SP efficientcy to heal and otherwise CC. The Tanks and anyone else with aggro has a DR5 assist to mitigate damage... yeah this could be funny

probably too methodical for the bulk of players though

Aesop

[Raithe]

Let's assume that the elite version has DR 15/ good+cold-iron
...


In your post, you don't account for the fact that the DR will also negate or lessen strength bonus damage, crit damage, and even sneak attack damage. "2d6 - 15" really computes to -3 to -13, not 0.

[EspyLacopa]

Espy, anything can be put on an item, including dr/force, had a nasty DM who had a bad guy warrior with bracers of 20/force, totally negating MM and FM...caster in our party tended to abuse those spells, no save, no to hit required, only SR to check against.

So, after you killed him, did you take his bracers with Force Resistance 20?

[Spookydodger]

In your post, you don't account for the fact that the DR will also negate or lessen strength bonus damage, crit damage, and even sneak attack damage. "2d6 - 15" really computes to -3 to -13, not 0.

This is because this is independent of the weapon. Strength bonus, critical damage, sneak attack damage are all "in addition". Strength bonus and critical damage are, affected by the damage reduction.

Sneak attack damage, as far as I'm aware, bypasses DR in this game (as per a post by the devs after they changed the application of special effects (such as wounding) only upon piercing of DR. I believe they said that sneak-attack bypasses DR.

The point of all of this was that the damage difference isn't that great, what most paladins have trouble with is hitting because, while they have the same BaB as fighters, they don't often have all the feats to back it up.

All that extra-damage is going to be averaged out when you aren't able to hit as often.

So, again, I intentionally left out the other factors because they are weapon independent. Yes, it would effect damage, but not significantly more for Paladins. You're only losing about 5 points of damage. Those 5 points become irrelevant if you don't hit.

[MysticTheurge]

This is because this is independent of the weapon. Strength bonus, critical damage, sneak attack damage are all "in addition". Strength bonus and critical damage are, affected by the damage reduction.

They're not affected by the damage reduction if you bypass it. That is, you get full strength and critical damage against a Reaver (or the like) when you're wielding a Good and Cold Iron weapon.


Sneak attack damage, as far as I'm aware, bypasses DR in this game (as per a post by the devs after they changed the application of special effects (such as wounding) only upon piercing of DR. I believe they said that sneak-attack bypasses DR.

Sneak attack is affected by DR. The point that was made is that Sneak Attack damage will help you overcome DR meaning you'll do some damage and therefore "proc" your weapon not bypass DR meaning you'd deal full, normal damage.

[And just to clarify, my point wasn't ever that a +5 Holy weapon is statistically better than a +X Greater Bane (against the appropriate target), just that there's something to be said for ease of use and relative availability. Once this spell is introduced, every 14th level paladin has access to a +5 Holy weapon if they want it. The same can't be said for a full suite of Greater Bane weapons.]

[Spookydodger]

Because the value of the spell depends on the loot level of the gameworld. Some D&D spells and class abilities essentially function as equipment replacements. In a game world with a level of loot above or below what is recommended in the DMG, you would need to raise or lower the power of those abilities to keep things balanced.

This is most obvious if you consider monks. In a world with no magic items, monks are the best melee class. But with the over-abundant items in DDO, monks would be inferior (unless Tubine buffs them in other ways, which they surely will). Similarly, the Holy Sword spell substitutes for a magic item of a certain level. In the boosted loot of DDO it is less useful than it was in PnP.

Amen. It makes it hard to balance things out when you are not constantly applying things towards one state or another. Either things are going to be inflated, or they're not. Dotting the landscape with examples of each seems to be making more work later on.

[Spookydodger]

Which a bard is entirely capable of doing, let's not be coy about it. In PvP this is precisely what would happen.

You're basing your arguments off of PvP? MY GOD.

A bard would be turned to stone and incinerated before he gets in range to do much at all. Coy has nothing to do with it. You're bantering semantics on the slick precipice of madness! Let's agree that our primary opponent in this game is the environment, leave PvP as a cute quasi-world that we sometimes visit, and move along. Arguing that it would make them unbalanced in PvP will earn you long, leering glares from most Melees that regularly get destroyed in said arenas and brawling taverns.


Regardless of how ridiculous hiding in the corner would be, when it comes down to assessing the balance of classes you would actually give the +1 DC of the wizard or sorceror to the bard. The fact that the bard spell affects everyone in the group is just more incentive to take a bard (or build one) over another class.

And more power to them! What do you want to do, next? Take away Paladin auras to help melee AC? Bards don't have as ready access to the feats that Wizards do to increase their DCs simply by virtue of the number of feats they get.

You're complaining about them getting a boost in spell points and a decreased cost in spell-point usage? Bards get less mana to begin with. By a long shot. For a level 14 sorcerer, on average, you're only gaining 160 spell points by being 10% more efficient. For a bard, you're talking more like 100. And given that this requires some heavy sinking of action points and a feat, I don't think the payback is so unjustified.

[EspyLacopa]

A bard with heighten and spellsinger can eventually hit the same DC and retain a lower cost than the wizard or sorceror. The one spell you found that was different actually doesn't do anything to counter my argument.

Unless the mage *also has heighten*

[MysticTheurge]

Amen. It makes it hard to balance things out when you are not constantly applying things towards one state or another. Either things are going to be inflated, or they're not. Dotting the landscape with examples of each seems to be making more work later on.

Except of course that they've been pretty consistent.

Spells get implemented exactly in line with D&D (or very nearly so). Everything else gets inflated.

I'm certainly not happy about that, as many of you know, but it is the case so far.

[Spookydodger]

You obviously aren't getting my point, because you are claiming that the bard's ability to affect everyone else's DC somehow makes my point foundless. That ability will only make bards more popular, and it is an excess of popularity that I am worried about.

You'll understand when your wizard gets turned down for a caster spot in a PUG because the group leader wants a bard.

Were you picked last in softball a lot, or what? I have rarely seen this happen, and I even rarer that I have done this. Typically, when I turn down a caster, it's because we're rife with them already. Usually, though, its first come, first serve. Bards are great. They are really useful and little understood. Bards have needed "some loving", to use the colloquialism, for some time. This is a nice benefit. More of a benefit than virtuoso and warchanter? Perhaps. Is that more because it is so overpowered, or because of the limited play-style of most players in the game? Few even realize how amazingly powerful fascinate is. How would they expect most Bards to be more than the buffbots that they want them to be?

[MysticTheurge]

You obviously aren't getting my point, because you are claiming that the bard's ability to affect everyone else's DC somehow makes my point foundless. That ability will only make bards more popular, and it is an excess of popularity that I am worried about.

You'll understand when your wizard gets turned down for a caster spot in a PUG because the group leader wants a bard.

I have to jump into this debate and say I don't really get what you're driving at.

The +1 to DC for other people is only really helpful if there are other casters in the group, but you seem to be suggesting that this bonus is going to make bards so popular that they'll replace casters. That seems logically inconsistent. It's not a benefit to anyone else but the bard if there aren't other casters in the group.

If, in fact, the bard is the only caster in the group, you're back to the situation everyone else seems to be arguing (the whole Wiz/Sorcs can get higher DCs overall than Bards can). So it's still not the kind of benefit that's going to see all the wiz/sorc spots being replaced by bards.

Now if your big complaint is that some people might consider a X wizards + 1 Bard group more powerful than an X+1 wizards group, I just can't see how that's something anyone really needs to be that worried about. Chances are most people actually already recognize that adding a bard to the group is a pretty powerful choice, so nothing's really going to change (at least not because of the one enhancement; there is a higher chance now that people will take multiple bards, if only because having a virtuoso, a spellsinger and a warchanter in the group offers benefits that having multiple bards didn't previously offer).

[EspyLacopa]

And people, I feel I should point this out. I'll highlight and bold for ya.


Nightshield
Abjuration
Level: Clr 1, Sor/Wiz 1
Components: V, S
Range: Personal
Duration: 1 minute/level

Grants a +1 resistance bonus to saves; this resistance bonus increases to +2 at caster level 6th and +3 at caster level 9th. In addition, this spell negates Magic Missile and Force Missile attacks directed at you.

[Spookydodger]

A bard with heighten and spellsinger can eventually hit the same DC and retain a lower cost than the wizard or sorceror. The one spell you found that was different actually doesn't do anything to counter my argument.

And they have fewer spell points. And your notion that they can hit the same DC is fallous:

Overview
Bard DC: Charisma+ spell level + enhancement + item + feat
Wizard DC: Intelligence + spell level + enhancement + item + feat

Feats
Bard feat slots at 14: 4 (5 if you are human)
Wizard feat slots at 14: 6 (4 character slots 2 metamagic slots, *1 more if you are human)
*Corrected. Thanks MT.

Maximum number of schools to apply focus to (spell focus +1 and greater spell focus +1 (for a +2 total)
2 spell schools
2 spell schools. Leaving 2 additional feats for metamagic uses such as extend, height, etc.*
*Corrected. Thanks MT.

Stat Bonus
Primary stats: Typically this is lower than a Wizard's Intelligence because most wizards don't need to spread their points to as many things. More bards require dexterity, con, and strength than a wizard. So, on average:

Bard average Charisma: 26 with full bonuses.
Wizard average Intelligence: 30 with full bonuses.

Spell Level
As has been stated before, most Bard spells are lower level for the same spell than Wizards or Sorcerers. This has the benefit of a reduced cost (by a very small amount), but a lower save DC as well:
Mass Sugestion:
Bard: 5th level. base save DC 15. Cost: (I believe) 30sp
Wizard: 6th level. base save DC 16. Cost: 35

Item Bonus
Irrelevant as both classes can use the same items to the same effect.

Enhancements
Also Irrelevant. The only enhancements that these classes have to boost DCs only do so on wands. And for those, they both have access to them!

So at the end of the day, Bard DCs can be anywhere from 0 to 6 points lower. This assumes that the Bard runs away from the party every time they buff their spell save DCs. I don't think giving the Bard +1 DC to his spells, +1 to others, and more spell points, is going to break the game, nor shun others in favor of a bard.

And, at the end of the day, if people go for MORE diversity in a group (including a bard) as opposed to less (more Wizards, Sorcerers, Fighters, Barbarians, Clerics), isn't that a good thing?

[Spookydodger]

If you are talking about the FoD/Flesh2Stone instakills then you are probably right, but then bards don't get FoD or Flesh to Stone - so it's not an interesting point. I don't see casters running around casting symbol spells all the time simply because they are higher level spells (= higher DC), and other than FoD/Flesh2Stone, I would say the most useful spells are the same ones bards do get and get at a lower level. Spellsinger will make it so bard's can spend less spell points for the same effectiveness as a high level wizard/sorceror (minus the FoD/Flesh2Stone). This seems a little wrong to me.

And bards get fewer spell points, right? Even with a 10% bonus that only they would get (assuming they don't share), that doesn't make up the difference between them (not that the difference should be balanced. Pure casters are meant to have more mana.



If fascinate gets fixed, my bard will have around a DC 50 + d20 enchantment. I don't see many wizards or sorcerors achieving anywhere near that. If it doesn't get fixed, it's even more effective than that. Bard's aren't made obsolete by the game mechanics, it's mainly the playerbase that doesn't have a clue.

I'm particularly scared that enhancements like these will give a clue to most of those players - and then we'll see nothing but bards everywhere.


The main thing that is "broken" about fascinate is that, in PnP, fascinate cannot be used once combat has begun. And once they do start a fascinate, they have to keep playing.

If Fascinate were to be fixed, it would have to be done differently in many ways. Firstly, it would have to be a toggle effect with a maximum duration. Secondly, since almost no mobs we encounter are NOT automatically hostile, it would have to be something like "can only be used before mobs take damage", anything that is damaged at the time fascinate is used cannot be fascinated (meaning that yes, if they are healed, they could be placated). Then Perform could once again be used the way it was meant to be used. Another problem is that the skill bonuses one can have in this game are much more easily boosted. I don't recall the last time I saw a +13 perform item in PnP, but I can find them with fair regularity here. Once perform becomes useful, it might need to be rarer, or taken out, perhaps.



I'm all for letting things that aren't game breaking go without complaint. I found most of the complaints about the dragonmarks silly and lacking in imagination. The dragonmarks aren't overpowered, though, and add flavor to the game without breaking it.

Other than the cost in feats to get the upper tiers of abilities, as compared to other costs in the game, I thought Dragonmarks were jim-dandy. Spending 3 precious feats in order to cast a spell which has limited use smacks of insanity unless you really don't care.

If anything, I think that these are more on the mark. Enhancements that have a decent cost and provide a real benefit when measured against the rest of the game.

[Gimpster]

The point of all of this was that the damage difference isn't that great, what most paladins have trouble with is hitting because, while they have the same BaB as fighters, they don't often have all the feats to back it up.
There is exactly one feat to help hit which fighters can get that paladins can't: Greater Weapon Focus. Additionally, fighters have an easier time affording Weapon Focus, so that gives them a total +2 from feats.
And then they have an enhancement for +3 strength, which if it brings them to an even number is another +2 attack, for +4 total.

Meanwhile, the Paladin casts Divine Favor for +3 attack and is only -1 behind the fighter.

[MysticTheurge]

Maximum number of schools to apply focus to (spell focus +1 and greater spell focus +1 (for a +2 total)
2 spell schools
3 spell schools

I'm pretty sure you can't buy Spell Focus or Greater Spell Focus with wizard bonus feats.

[Spookydodger]

Many of the cc spells dont have the charisma mod into the dc, just the caster level :p

anyway...


Isn't this incorrect? Don't ALL spells incorporate the caster's primary stat bonus into the save-DC of the spell?

[Gimpster]

I'm pretty sure you can't buy Spell Focus or Greater Spell Focus with wizard bonus feats.
Yes, but the fact that wizards get bonus feats opens up their generic feat slots from being spent on metamagic. Every bard will get Extend Spell, which costs a feat, but wizards get it (and Empower and Heighten) basically for free.

[Gimpster]

If Fascinate were to be fixed, it would have to be done differently in many ways. Firstly, it would have to be a toggle effect with a maximum duration.
The way to fix Fascinate would be to give it a saving throw, and to compute that saving throw by a different formula than in PnP. That's only fair to account for the fact fascinate is more powerful and can be used in the middle of combat. Instead of the DC being equal to the perform check, it should be more like d20 + perform /3, or some such.

[Spookydodger]

The new enhancements for bards are a bit absurd. I really don't think a class that can fascinate, cast enchantment spells as well as any other caster, can use scrolls, and can hit an attack bonus that is slightly better than what most melee can achieve on their own needed much attention.


You mean while using the same buffs that they give out to said melee'ers?

Bards are cool. They can buff up to be decent at casting and decent at fighting.

Fighters still outdo them in damage, attack bonus, hitpoints.
Paladins still outdo them in saves.
Sorcerers outdo them in casting speed, spell points, and spell DC
Wizards outdo them in spell points, diversity of spells, and greatly in spell DC
Clerics outdo them in healing and also have types of spells that Bards can't even contemplate unless they use scrolls, which are expensive and unreliable in many situations
Rogues are rogues. Not much can duplicate all the things they do.

Perhaps the only class that needs to worry about Bard ascension is Rangers, but perhaps that's because Rangers area also jack-of-all-trades with a bit more fighting and a bit less casting. I don't think they'll mind the Bard being along, though, to be honest.

[Spookydodger]

The way to fix Fascinate would be to give it a saving throw, and to compute that saving throw by a different formula than in PnP. That's only fair to account for the fact fascinate is more powerful and can be used in the middle of combat. Instead of the DC being equal to the perform check, it should be more like d20 + perform /3, or some such.

Doesn't it have a saving throw now? I could have sworn I have not been able to fascinate really high-level (not red or purple named) mobs before.

[Hafeal]

Quarion -

Will these 2 cleric spells be alignment based? That is, they are not available to you if you are the opposite alignment? Is there a plan for that in order to make alignments more relevant to the game?


Here is the list of new spells we are currently working on for Update 4.2: Searing Heights:

Spells for Clerics:

Chaos Hammer
Evocation [Chaotic]
Level: Clr 4
Components: V, S
Saving Throw: Will partial, see text.

You unleash chaotic power to smite your enemies. This spell deals 1d8 points of damage per two caster levels (max 5d8) to lawful creatures (or 1d6 points of damage per caster level (max 10d6) to lawful outsiders) and slows them for a short period of time. A successful Will save reduces the damage by half and negates the slow effect. The spell deals only half damage to creatures that are neither lawful nor chaotic, and they are not slowed. Such creatures can reduce the damage by half again (down to one quarter) with a successful Will save. This spell deals no damage to chaotic creatures, and can only be cast by chaotic or neutral casters - it has no effect when cast by a lawful caster.


Order's Wrath
Evocation [Lawful]
Level: Clr 4
Components: V, S
Saving Throw: Will partial, see text.

You unleash lawful power to smite your enemies. This spell deals 1d8 points of damage per two caster levels (max 5d8) to chaotic creatures (or 1d6 points of damage per caster level (max 10d6) to chaotic outsiders) and dazes them for a short period of time. A successful Will save reduces the damage by half and negates the daze effect. The spell deals only half damage to creatures that are neither lawful nor chaotic, and they are not dazed. Such creatures can reduce the damage by half again (down to one quarter) with a successful Will save. This spell deals no damage to lawful creatures, and can only be cast by lawful or neutral casters - it has no effect when cast by a chaotic caster.

[Gimpster]

Doesn't it have a saving throw now? I could have sworn I have not been able to fascinate really high-level (not red or purple named) mobs before.
A variety of monsters may have immunity to mental effects, but that doesn't mean they're making a saving throw.

[Gimpster]

Will these 2 cleric spells be alignment based? That is, they are not available to you if you are the opposite alignment? Is there a plan for that in order to make alignments more relevant to the game?
The answer to that question is already contained in the text you pasted: yes, they are blocked from casters of the opposite alignment.

It seems likely that even UMD-bards will not be able to use scrolls of the spell if it opposes their alignment.

[Hafeal]

The answer to that question is already contained in the text you pasted: yes, they are blocked from casters of the opposite alignment.

It seems likely that even UMD-bards will not be able to use scrolls of the spell if it opposes their alignment.

Thanks Gimpster. I missed that in the description. :)

[LordDamax]

A bard with heighten and spellsinger can eventually hit the same DC and retain a lower cost than the wizard or sorceror. The one spell you found that was different actually doesn't do anything to counter my argument.

Actually, no.

We assume stats are the same, since there is no difference. We assume feats are the same (although mages get more feats and can more easily 'afford' spell focus feats). We assume gear is the same. So the only variable is the base casting power of the class, and the bard enhancement.

So, a level 14 bard, casts a heightened spell:
10 Base + 5 for the heightened spell + 1 for Spellsinger bonus = 16 base DC

A mage or sorcerer, out of range of the bard's song, or in another group:
10 Base + 7 for the heightened spell = 17 base DC

Heighten raises your DC up to your MAXIMUM CASTABLE spell level. Bards, at lv 15, cap out at 5th level spells. Mages, sorcerers and clerics cap out at 7th level spells.

In fact at 20th level, a Bard caps out at 6th level spells and all others at 9th level. The gap widens in favor of the not-bard.


Sorry.

[Spookydodger]

They're not affected by the damage reduction if you bypass it. That is, you get full strength and critical damage against a Reaver (or the like) when you're wielding a Good and Cold Iron weapon.


Granted. The only things that ignore damage reduction if you don't bypass it are other effects. Such as flaming or Bane.



Sneak attack is affected by DR. The point that was made is that Sneak Attack damage will help you overcome DR meaning you'll do some damage and therefore "proc" your weapon not bypass DR meaning you'd deal full, normal damage.


Oh, my mistake.



[And just to clarify, my point wasn't ever that a +5 Holy weapon is statistically better than a +X Greater Bane (against the appropriate target), just that there's something to be said for ease of use and relative availability. Once this spell is introduced, every 14th level paladin has access to a +5 Holy weapon if they want it. The same can't be said for a full suite of Greater Bane weapons.]

Granted. But really, this weapon only replaces at most, what, 2 bane weapons? Lawful evil outsider and Chaotic evil outsider (or evil outsider?)?

Maybe it also replaces a Holy of Pure good weapon, too? +5 is not too shabby. Demons are chaotic and evil. Or Neutral and evil? So you replace 2 bane weapons, on a good day. Now, consider that in terms of backpack slots. You are only saving 1 backpack slot. In terms of spells, you are replacing a level 1 (protection against evil) with a level 4.

This doesn't seem like a great benefit for being a pure Paladin. It needs to be better to be a good choice.

Am I off the mark in this regard?

Yes, it makes it easier to get a suitable weapon. But geez, I must be lucky or jaded, because I have only been able to ransack PoP 2 times since it came out, and every character I have has something suitable. It just doesn't seem like enough to justify being a full paladin, 4th level spell slot, and a backpack slot that might otherwise go to a good weapon.

[Spookydodger]

And people, I feel I should point this out. I'll highlight and bold for ya.

Whoops... I don't know how I missed that. For some reason I had it in my head that it was targeted. I must have been confusing it with some of the other enhancements or spells.

My mistake.

[Spookydodger]

I'm pretty sure you can't buy Spell Focus or Greater Spell Focus with wizard bonus feats.

Yes, you're right. My mistake.

Though it does make affording the spell-focus feats much more plausible.

[Spookydodger]

Quarion -

Will these 2 cleric spells be alignment based? That is, they are not available to you if you are the opposite alignment? Is there a plan for that in order to make alignments more relevant to the game?

More accurately, they won't have any effect. I believe, by the way they've worded it, you can still take them, but they won't do anything if you are of the opposite alignment as the spell.

[Drfirewater79]

[quote\]
New Enhancements for Bards:

Spellsinger:
Prereqs: Bard level 6, Bard Music of Energy 2, Bard Skill: Concentration 2, Bard Song Magic 2, Bard Lyric of Song 1, Any one of the following: Magical Training, Mental Toughness, Spell Focus: Enchantment, Greater Spell Focus: Enchantment, Empower Spell, Extend Spell, Heighten Spell, Maximize Spell

"Your studies into magic have granted you a +2 bonus to your Concentration and Use Magic Device skills, +100 Spell Points, and the ability to expend a use of Bardic Music to grant all nearby allies a +1 morale bonus to spell DC's and a 10% morale discount on spell costs.

Virtuoso:
Prereqs: Bard level 6, Bard Extra Song 2, Bard Skill: Perform 2, Bard Lingering Song 1, Bard Charisma 1, Any one of the following: Bard Extra Song 4, Skill Focus: Perform, Negotiator

"Your studies into song have granted you a +2 bonus to your Diplomacy, Listen, and Perform skills, 3 extra uses of Bardic Music per rest, and your beneficial songs last an additional 10% longer. You also gain the ability to expend a use of Bardic Music to enthrall multiple enemies, fascinating them and inflicting a -2 penalty to attack rolls and Will saves even if the fascination is broken."

Warchanter:
Prereqs: Bard level 6, Bard Inspired Attack 1, Bard Inspired Damage 1, Bard Inspired Bravery 2, Power Attack, Any one of the following: Weapon Focus: Slashing, Weapon Focus: Piercing, Weapon Focus: Bludgeoning

"Your studies into war have granted you a +2 bonus to your Intimidate skill. Your Inspire Courage song gains an additional +1 to attack rolls, +2 to damage rolls, and +1 to fear saves. If you possess the Barbarian Rage ability, you gain +1 use per rest. You also gain the ability to expend a use of Bardic Music to grant all nearby allies damage reduction 5/-."

[\quote]

OH NO YOU DIDNT

dont even tell me that your idea of coping out on prestige classes is to make them enhancements .......

ok we shouldnt have enhancements as is and we should have prestige classes so saying hey we are gonna implament them as the same thing isnt so bad right .... WRONG what happens to the other bonuses you are suppost to get like spell level increase special powers and abilites based on the level of prestige class you have

ar you planning on doing as enhancements instead of levels? are we gonna be taking prestige classes in our enhancements????

so now i will beable to have at max level a lvl 20 toon with 8 levels of a prstige class in enhancements making my toon an effective lvl 28 character?

dont get me wrong if that is what you are planning it would be cool take prestige classes as seperate levels so that you could max your toon and still have something to work for but we arent at lvl 20 yet and you already complain we are overpowered (which i think is bull punish good players for playing good) dont you think one of two things will happen here

1) we get way over powered cause we didnt have to trade levels for presitge class power

2) we dont get as much as we are suppost to get in the prestige class and we get huge player number drops again

really i love this game but its hard enough to find a party at some times if we lose anymore people it could get bad fast

read the books play a little real dnd from time to time ad remember what it means to be a fantasy relm game people play dnd to become powerful to slaughter there enmies and have them trembling in there wake

if it wasnt for that no one would play PnP

Dont under power us all the time and dont give us more then what we are expecting just give us what we are expecting from a game that deserves to be as good as its name sake and has that potential and you will get the old DDO'ers back especially with monks in the near future and with druids early next year plus getting to lvl 20 the game has lots of room to change and get better but we have to make it that far first lol

baby steps

[Spookydodger]

OH NO YOU DIDNT

dont even tell me that your idea of coping out on prestige classes is to make them enhancements .......


I think this is a foregone conclusion and one that most have been aware of for at least 2 months, when the new enhancement system came out.

I personally like this MUCH better.

First, you can change these. I doubt we'll have any real way to respec our level choices, including prestige class choices
Second, now you can mix-and-match more. You won't be locked into one set of benefits, as much.
Third, easier development. It's much easier to implement these little nuggets of Prestige Classes than it is to develop a whole class, put in all the game changes (new icons, new trainers, new web entries, etc etc), and balance it with existing classes as a whole.

Otherwise enhancement lines would drive the games power above and beyond any hope of being near pnp with a whole new line of power levels available in the game.

To harken back to the line from an ooooold commercial with a little DDO bastardaization: Enhancement lines as prestige classes: you're soaking in it!

[MysticTheurge]

Granted. But really, this weapon only replaces at most, what, 2 bane weapons? Lawful evil outsider and Chaotic evil outsider (or evil outsider?)?

The vast majority of creatures in the game are evil, and thus are affected by holy. The only ones that aren't (that I can think of off the top of my head) are Animals, Vermin, Elementals, Oozes, Constructs and some Aurum members.

Pretty much all Orcs, Goblinoids, Reptilians, Giants, Undead, Elves (Drow), Dwarves (Duergar, and with the exception the aforementioned Aurum Members), Aberrations, Dragons, Monstrous Humanoids, and Magical Beasts (though a few of these might be neutral too) are evil.

So, in essence, Holy affects half, if not more, of the things in the game, whereas a Bane weapon will only affect a small portion of them.


I personally like this MUCH better.

First, you can change these. I doubt we'll have any real way to respec our level choices, including prestige class choices
Second, now you can mix-and-match more. You won't be locked into one set of benefits, as much.
Third, easier development. It's much easier to implement these little nuggets of Prestige Classes than it is to develop a whole class, put in all the game changes (new icons, new trainers, new web entries, etc etc), and balance it with existing classes as a whole.

I dislike them, partly for the very reasons you give and partly because I disagree with your reasons.

1. "Prestige Classes" should be choices as important as taking a level in anything else. You shouldn't be able to just switch from one to another on a whim. The enhancement version of the system essentially lets you be an assassin one day and a thief-acrobat the next. This is out of keeping with the way the prestige class system is designed to work.

2. You can mix-and-match less. In the real prestige class system you can take however many levels of however many prestige classes you want. If you want to be half one thing and half another you can do that with all the same benefits and penalties that come with regular multiclassing. The enhancement system prevents you from doing this by limiting you to one "prestige class" at a time.

3. Regardless, prestige classes are a large part of D&D 3.5 and ought to be given the development time they deserve. Enhancements, on the other hand, are something Turbine made up out of whole cloth with more than their fair share of development time (including an entire update devoted to fixing them) and have actually done much of what you worry the prestige system would do (create drastic imbalances between various races and classes).

[gpk]

The vast majority of creatures in the game are evil, and thus are affected by holy. The only ones that aren't (that I can think of off the top of my head) are Animals, Vermin, Elementals, Oozes, Constructs and some Aurum members.

Pretty much all Orcs, Goblinoids, Reptilians, Giants, Undead, Elves (Drow), Dwarves (Duergar, and with the exception the aforementioned Aurum Members), Aberrations, Dragons, Monstrous Humanoids, and Magical Beasts (though a few of these might be neutral too) are evil.

So +5 holy (+3 holy of righteousness) easily available in AH or pawn shops, but I'm gonna cast a spell to save on repair costs? A level 6 +1 greater bane is +5+3d6, not +5 +2d6. When ppl "hunt" for greater banes they hunt for +3s/ alignment/elemental greater banes which puts em at least 2d6 more than a +5 holy.





Ah you got me. I typo'd. Mea culpa and all that. So now fix the sentence to read "2nd level spell" and "8th level paladin" and pretty much everything else stays the same.


Really how many paladins are going to waste their 1st level 2 slot on DR5 for 6 seconds/lev? Do paladins get 2 level 2 slots at level 8? Nothing changes huh, are the mobs the same you fight at level 4? Is the equipment available to you the same? Context loses out again huh.


For the record much stuff has deviated from pnp, heck just recently power critical is no longer weapon type specific but gives +4 to crit confirmation to ALL weapon types. Ask yourself why? My hunch is that it was too weak by DDO standards and not worth a feat. That's a clear deviation from pnp isn't it?


Because the value of the spell depends on the loot level of the gameworld. Some D&D spells and class abilities essentially function as equipment replacements. In a game world with a level of loot above or below what is recommended in the DMG, you would need to raise or lower the power of those abilities to keep things balanced.

This is most obvious if you consider monks. In a world with no magic items, monks are the best melee class. But with the over-abundant items in DDO, monks would be inferior (unless Tubine buffs them in other ways, which they surely will). Similarly, the Holy Sword spell substitutes for a magic item of a certain level. In the boosted loot of DDO it is less useful than it was in PnP.

It seems to be such a difficult concept to grasp and I'm not exactly sure why.

[MysticTheurge]

Really how many paladins are going to waste their 1st level 2 slot on DR5 for 6 seconds/lev?

Given that your alternate suggestion is Resist Energy, which is available from anyone else whereas Angel Skin is not, I'd say it's probably a toss up.


It seems to be such a difficult concept to grasp and I'm not exactly sure why.

Spells haven't, for the most part, deviated at all.

[gpk]

Given that your alternate suggestion is Resist Energy, which is available from anyone else whereas Angel Skin is not, I'd say it's probably a toss up.

Hmm what level do wizards get stoneskin? Alternate source you say? The next time I should turn down stone skin and say "no thanks please keep your DR10/adamantine for 1 min level at 10 points of dmg absorbed/level, give me an energy resist instead, i'm packing Angelskin.".


Spells haven't, for the most part, deviated at all.

Last i heard there were many enhancements and a deluge of items giving damage boosts and raising the DC of spells, does that not count as "spells deviating" ?

[GeneralDiomedes]

Hmm what level do wizards get stoneskin? Alternate source you say? The next time I should turn down stone skin and say "no thanks please keep your DR10/adamantine for 1 min level at 10 points of dmg absorbed/level, give me an energy resist instead, i'm packing Angelskin.".


How many times do you get Resist Energy vs. Stoneskin? I PUG almost exclusively and have for more than a year and I'd be generous saying the ratio is 50:1.

People just don't give out Stoneskin that often.

Not to mention the fact that Stoneskin is ablative while Angelskin isn't. In the old days when Stoneskin was non-ablative, it was DR 5/Adamantine, almost identical to what Angelskin is now.

[GeneralDiomedes]

So +5 holy (+3 holy of righteousness) easily available in AH or pawn shops, but I'm gonna cast a spell to save on repair costs?


Checking the Thelanis auction house for +5 holy as I type this.

Greatsword - 0
Bastard Sword - 0
Longsword - 0
Shortsword - 0
Scimitar - 0
Warhammer - 0
Rapier - 0
Dwarven Axe - 0
Khopesh - 0
Maul - 0
Heavy Pick - 0



A level 6 +1 greater bane is +5+3d6, not +5 +2d6. When ppl "hunt" for greater banes they hunt for +3s/ alignment/elemental greater banes which puts em at least 2d6 more than a +5 holy.


xx of Greater xx Bane are nice, to be sure.

But how many people do you know have 1 for EVERY enemy type? I have pulled two in my time and both were Bastard Swords which unfortunately I couldn't use.

[gpk]

Try checkin the shop and AH more often, often ppl jsut sell em straight to the pawn shops and more often they put a low buyout in the Auction house. It's amazing what you can find in the brokers sometimes even when you're just going to sell some junk weapons (a good reason not to sell to barkeep) or quickly skimming through the AH once in a while.

Heck just in the last hour I glanced at a couple of categoires as i logged in and casually bid on a +2 holy burst dwarven waraxe of righteousness (Dwarf only). I won it for 46k gp.

[Raithe]

So, a level 14 bard, casts a heightened spell:
10 Base + 5 for the heightened spell + 1 for Spellsinger bonus = 16 base DC

A mage or sorcerer, out of range of the bard's song, or in another group:
10 Base + 7 for the heightened spell = 17 base DC



It's like talking to a brick wall.

I have been trying to keep some things the same throughout this conversation so that things can be compared easily. When a bard heightens a spell to level 6 (which they eventually will be able to do if they have heighten), then it becomes a level 6 spell and will cost accordingly. It could conceivably have the same DC as an unheightened wiz/sorc level 7 spell, but it will cost less for the bard to cast. Once again, so people may actually get it this time, the spell and the DC are the same - but the bard version costs less to cast.

If the wiz/sorc were to heighten it to level 9 it would cost even more now wouldn't it?

[Raithe]

Now if your big complaint is that some people might consider a X wizards + 1 Bard group more powerful than an X+1 wizards group, I just can't see how that's something anyone really needs to be that worried about.

You don't? You really don't?

Having a class *cough* *cough* CLERIC *cough* *cough* be a virtual necessity in any group has been the bane of my entire DDO experience.

[Nataichal]

I admit that I only read a few pages of this thread, but I was wondering if anyone else noticed this little fact.


The raid boss for Module 5, Litany of the Dead 3/4 (which I assume is a Lich of some sort) is going to turn all your party members into undead when they die. WEEEEEEEEE!!!!!!!!!!

[wiglin]

It's like talking to a brick wall.

I have been trying to keep some things the same throughout this conversation so that things can be compared easily. When a bard heightens a spell to level 6 (which they eventually will be able to do if they have heighten), then it becomes a level 6 spell and will cost accordingly. It could conceivably have the same DC as an unheightened wiz/sorc level 7 spell, but it will cost less for the bard to cast. Once again, so people may actually get it this time, the spell and the DC are the same - but the bard version costs less to cast.

If the wiz/sorc were to heighten it to level 9 it would cost even more now wouldn't it?


If the bard will be able to land the spell reliably with it heighten to level 6 then sure. More than likely heightening a spell to level 9 may be what it takes to land CC reliably enough to make it worthwhile. If a bard has to cast that same spell that is cheaper more than once to land it (because it is 3 dc lower), then it is no longer cheaper.

Giving Bards an ability to raise the dc of the PARTIES spells is a benefit for all.

[KristovK]

My paladin will use both the Angelskin spell and the Holy Weapon spell, and yes, he's a pure paladin. 14 months and I've yet to pull some of the top 5 weapon types, no vorpal or banisher or disrupters, certainly no +5 holy cold iron weapons, so that one spell will be nice. Also haven't gotten a planar gird or anything else that gives Stoneskin, except my Wiz...but it costs 200+gp per casting, and that adds up, so Angelskin will also be useful, especially since I'd rather wear my mithril armor instead of addy armor.

Oh..and my Paly will be able to make holy weapons for anyone in the party that needs one, that's pretty nice right there ain't it?

On Argo, I've spent the last 3 months looking for cold iron holy weapons in the AH and pawn shop, and to date, outside of the 2 +3 holy cold iron I saw in the AH starting in the millions, no luck. Pulled ONE +2 Holy Cold Iron BS and I've hung onto that with my fighter, seems to be a very hard weapon type to find for anything approaching a reasonable price. Of course, there's a lot of people on Argo and a lot of plat sellers are obviously hard at work trying to make plat, so it does make it a bit harder to get reasonable prices on anything...seriously...when I'm seeing +2 Str items, level 5, with a starting price of 150k gold and buyouts of 1 mil gold...please, don't tell me it's easy to buy something like a +5 Holy Cold Iron weapon or a +3 Greater Bane Weapon with align/eley damage on it.

[KristovK]

It's like talking to a brick wall.

I have been trying to keep some things the same throughout this conversation so that things can be compared easily. When a bard heightens a spell to level 6 (which they eventually will be able to do if they have heighten), then it becomes a level 6 spell and will cost accordingly. It could conceivably have the same DC as an unheightened wiz/sorc level 7 spell, but it will cost less for the bard to cast. Once again, so people may actually get it this time, the spell and the DC are the same - but the bard version costs less to cast.

If the wiz/sorc were to heighten it to level 9 it would cost even more now wouldn't it?

It'll cost the Wiz/Sorc 15 more sp to Heighten the spell to 9th level then the Bard spends to do the same to 6th level..and the DC is 3 higher as well. Add in whatever feats to enhance the DC you want for a Bard, Wiz/Sorc will be doing the same, so the DC will still be 3 higher in the end regardless, for all of 15 more sp then the Bard spends. Now, taking into consideration that the Wiz and Sorc will have quite a bit more sp to use and that their spell will land on the FIRST try instead of..well..probably very rarely for the Bard to get it to land when facing the same mobs at 20th level and lets see who's the more cost effective caster here.....

[Raithe]

It'll cost the Wiz/Sorc 15 more sp to Heighten the spell to 9th level then the Bard spends to do the same to 6th level..and the DC is 3 higher as well. Add in whatever feats to enhance the DC you want for a Bard, Wiz/Sorc will be doing the same, so the DC will still be 3 higher in the end regardless, for all of 15 more sp then the Bard spends. Now, taking into consideration that the Wiz and Sorc will have quite a bit more sp to use and that their spell will land on the FIRST try instead of..well..probably very rarely for the Bard to get it to land when facing the same mobs at 20th level and lets see who's the more cost effective caster here.....

** rolls eyes endlessly **

Instead of making a bunch of absurd statements about how if this then that and "more effective" this and "have to cast again" that, we can actually compare spells on a direct basis. A heightened Otto's Sphere cast by a 20th level bard with a charisma of 36 versus an unheightened Otto's Sphere cast by a 20th level sorceror with a charisma of 36. Both have dual enchantment spell focus feats and the same greater spell focus enchantment items. The bard used his spellsinger song to increase the DC of his spell by 1, the sorceror had no such song in his casting.

The DC for the bard is 10 + 6(spell level) + 13(cha) + 2(feats) + 2(item) + 1(song) = 34.
The DC for the sorc is 10 + 7(spell level) + 13(cha) + 2(feats) + 2(item) = 34.

The cost for the bard spell is 35 - 10% = 32.
The cost for the sorc spell is 40 = 40.

We're done. Thanks for all the memories.

[gpk]

please, don't tell me it's easy to buy something like a +5 Holy Cold Iron weapon or a +3 Greater Bane Weapon with align/eley damage on it.

Clearly you misread, im saying regular +5 holy (or equivalent) or +1 greater bane weapons are not hard to come by, 99% of the time the cold iron is not a factor.
And yes, a +3 OR elemental OR alignment greater bane weapon is not easy to buy.

Honestly Invaders has been dropping named cold iron+good weapons for a while now. There have been many many garzuuls' tyrzas, prysuuls and (sickle) in the AH and shops left unclaimled and this was before +4/5 holies became more and more common. Ppl still preffered to wound the renders and co. on hard/elite back then and most ppl still do.

[Gimpster]

** rolls eyes endlessly **
Why do we bother straightening you out?


Instead of making a bunch of absurd statements about how if this then that and "more effective" this and "have to cast again" that, we can actually compare spells on a direct basis. A heightened Otto's Sphere cast by a 20th level bard with a charisma of 36 versus an unheightened Otto's Sphere cast by a 20th level sorceror with a charisma of 36.
Yeah, comparing spells on a direct basis might be a good idea. But that means you can't declare that the sorc decide NOT to heighten, while the bard is allowed to heighten.

Sorcs have way more mana overall, so they can afford to heighten a lot more than a bard can. Plus they can get an enhancement to further reduce the cost of a Heightened spell. Bards don't get that. If you want to do it fairly, have them both heighten, or neither.

[GeneralDiomedes]

Clearly you misread, im saying regular +5 holy (or equivalent) or +1 greater bane weapons are not hard to come by, 99% of the time the cold iron is not a factor.
And yes, a +3 OR elemental OR alignment greater bane weapon is not easy to buy.

Honestly Invaders has been dropping named cold iron+good weapons for a while now. There have been many many garzuuls' tyrzas, prysuuls and (sickle) in the AH and shops left unclaimled and this was before +4/5 holies became more and more common.

For someone with top of the line equipment including a greater bane for every enemy type, there isn't a spell in the book that would trump it so I'm not sure why you are even commenting. Should they invent a new spell just for the guy who has everything?

As for availability of +5 holy, I personally check the Rapier section in the AH probably twice a week, and I know that a +5 holy or equivalent is pretty hard to come by.

And for the record, do you actually have a +5 cold iron holy weapon? I don't mean a +4 cold iron of pure good, I mean a +5 cold iron holy.



Ppl still preffered to wound the renders and co. on hard/elite back then and most ppl still do.


Wounding is not faster for a DPS character even with DR, so I'm not sure where that comment comes from.

[Torosar]

Warchanter:
Prereqs: Bard level 6, Bard Inspired Attack 1, Bard Inspired Damage 1, Bard Inspired Bravery 2, Power Attack, Any one of the following: Weapon Focus: Slashing, Weapon Focus: Piercing, Weapon Focus: Bludgeoning


I really like the fact these bard specialisations have been implemented as it really allows bards to pursue a path and gain benefits from their particular play style.. whether its crowd control, melee, healing etc.

However, i think warchanter has an issue. Is it just me or does requiring both Power Attack AND a weapon focus seem like kind of a stretch? I play a dex based battle bard as do many other people out there im sure, and this seems kind of harsh to need both. I'd be willing to swap a feat if i had to take one of these two pre-requisites.. but i can't drop 2.. that kind of takes me to a point where costs outweigh the benefits.

Would it not make more sense to do one of the 2 following ideas:
1) Change weapon focus to improved crit. I mean, this specialisation is obviously meant for battle bard types.. and i would bet just about all of them would have an improved crit feat, crowd control or healer types are less likely to have this (although they may).. so if you are trying to distinguish between those who are melee and those who are not... i just figure this makes more sense.

2) Why not change it so you only need ONE out of Power Attack, Weapon Focus: Slashing, Weapon Focus: Piercing or Weapon Focus: Bludgeoning. Again, i think this is more logical given fighting types likely to take this specialisation are more likely to have one of these 4 feats than those who are less battle intensive.

Bard's dont generally have a huge attack bonus (well in comparison to the main melee classes) and it just seems harsh that both power attack AND a weapon focus are needed to obtain something that could be so helpful to so many bards.

Maybe someone has a better idea, i dont know.. these just seem slightly more logical and player friendly to me.

Regards,

Toro

[EspyLacopa]

It's like talking to a brick wall.

I have been trying to keep some things the same throughout this conversation so that things can be compared easily. When a bard heightens a spell to level 6 (which they eventually will be able to do if they have heighten), then it becomes a level 6 spell and will cost accordingly. It could conceivably have the same DC as an unheightened wiz/sorc level 7 spell, but it will cost less for the bard to cast. Once again, so people may actually get it this time, the spell and the DC are the same - but the bard version costs less to cast.

If the wiz/sorc were to heighten it to level 9 it would cost even more now wouldn't it?

And why is it not affecting the mage as well? And why wouldn't the mage *also* have heighten?

[gpk]

For someone with top of the line equipment including a greater bane for every enemy type, there isn't a spell in the book that would trump it so I'm not sure why you are even commenting. Should they invent a new spell just for the guy who has everything?

As for availability of +5 holy, I personally check the Rapier section in the AH probably twice a week, and I know that a +5 holy or equivalent is pretty hard to come by.

And for the record, do you actually have a +5 cold iron holy weapon? I don't mean a +4 cold iron of pure good, I mean a +5 cold iron holy.

Wounding is not faster for a DPS character even with DR, so I'm not sure where that comment comes from.

I've given aways, sold and auctioned many +5 equivalents of many types of weapons and even more +4s than i can rememeber and Ive gotten a ton from the AH and shop as well with minimal effort.

I don't have a +5 holy cold iron (got a bunch of +4 equivalents and a banishing rapier) but why does the cold iron keep sticking your head? Last quest I rememeber holy+cold iron being useful on normal is Invasion (WW). Really is Queen Lailat the real reason one would want a +5 holy cold iron melee weapon? The cold iron is a non issue but you seem to be stuck on it.

For the sake of argument let's say +5 holy weapon equivalent are rare and that +4 holy is not, is a +1 more worth a spell slot, sp and components still? Imo it is not.

It is precisely for the ppl who DON'T have many greater banes that i bring the issue up, why just last week i went to to sell some junk weapons to the broker and a level 14 +3 axiomatic burst khopesh of righteousness was just sitting there. Lucky me; i guess the rest of the paladin with their +4 holies are going to ooh and ahh over a +5 holy weapons ?. Paladins have had stuff taken away all in the name of rebalancing on numerous occasions now and haven't gotten anything nice in return like the other classes have. I don't need the help weapon wise, others do. To not even be the near equivalent of a plain vanilla +1 greater bane seems like insult to injury if you'll pardon the exxageration.
Wheres the real incentive to stay pure paladin past level 11/12? Might as well boost your dex and take 2 levels of rogue for UMD and evasion and wear light armor.

LOL you're checking AH rapier section probably twice a week and complaining about not finding anything? Really thats the basis of your argument? That's an absurdly low amount of times to check the AH unless you can only play twice a week, I'd ask my guildies or buddies to glance at the AH for me when they're on or post in the marketplace forums (ha).

Honestly if anything you should WANT Holy Sword to be boosted if you play a paladin in DDO if that's how little you play or glance at shops/AH.

[studentx]

Spells for Paladins:
Angelskin
Abjuration [Good]
Level: Pal 2
Components: V, S, DF
Target: Lawful Good creature touched (self or ally)
Duration: 6 seconds/level
The subject gains damage reduction 5/evil.

---Um your kidding right? Customers can't have Messiah as a name. I doubt Angel anything meets the EULA. How about Holyskin, Defense from Evil, GoodyGoodyskin, LGisn'tsoStupidnowisitskin?
:p

[MysticTheurge]

---Um your kidding right? Customers can't have Messiah as a name. I doubt Angel anything meets the EULA. How about Holyskin, Defense from Evil, GoodyGoodyskin, LGisn'tsoStupidnowisitskin?
:p

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/angel.htm

[Mad_Bombardier]

The DC for the bard is 10 + 6(spell level) + 13(cha) + 2(feats) + 2(item) + 1(song) = 34.
The DC for the sorc is 10 + 7(spell level) + 13(cha) + 2(feats) + 2(item) = 34.

The cost for the bard spell is 35 - 10% = 32.
The cost for the sorc spell is 40 = 40.A similar thing is done now and its not a big deal. You can Heighten Hold Person for cheaper than Hold Monster (granted it affects less creatures). But with Improved Metamagic, any Heightened spell is cheaper than a spell at the level to which its being Heightened. Heightened Hypnotism is cheaper than FoD. Meh, get over it.

Look at the same example with both Level 20 casters using Heighten.

The DC for the bard is 10 + 6(spell level) + 13(cha) + 2(feats) + 2(item) + 1(song) = 34.
The DC for the sorc is 10 + 9(spell level) + 13(cha) + 2(feats) + 2(item) = 36.

The cost for the bard spell is 35 - 10% (Spellsinger) = 32 = 5.33 SP/ DC.
The cost for the sorc spell is 50 - 20% (ImpHeight3) = 40 = 4.44 SP/ DC.

Net difference, +2 DC for +8 SP = cheaper than the normal rate of 5 SP per spell level/DC increase. Sorc gets higher spell DC for less total cost, so still comes out on top. It doesn't matter that for one brief instance, in one specialized scenario, a Bard can do it cheaper, earlier, etc. Heck, a Bard can cast Otto's Sphere 3 levels earlier than a Wiz and 4 levels earlier than a Sorc. Are we to start crying about inequities for that too? Have you had Arcanes turned down at lvl 10 because we needed a Bard to cast Otto's?

[wiglin]

Sorc sends a tell to party leader "Can I join I can give everything the finger"

Party leader replys: "No thanks we are waiting on a bard so they can make things dance cheaper than you can insta kill them. Plus they get a +1 to dc's and you don't."

Sorc says "But I have 3x more sp's then a bard"

Party leader says "ya but they give the cleric a 10% reduction in sp costs"

[GeneralDiomedes]

Ooze Puppet

This won't have much use. But when it will, it ought to last an awfully long time. At least it will be a fun spell for wizards and the occasional scroll-packing sorcerer. :)



I can think of one VERY good use for it -> the incredibly annoying pudding flenser/render/reaver combos in Threnal. Just charm the pudding, take out the demon and save some wear on your weapon.

[Chance]

Ok the wizard and sorcer spell updates are just lame. I mean Nightshield is ok, but the Ooze and Spawn spells are about some of the more senseless wastes of creation time I could imagine.

Ooze charming will only end in you being overrun the first time it fights for you, since it's division creates more enemies than you originally had. and spawn screen is a senseless choice of spell when I can just as easily comman undead.

How about some good spells such as protection from arrows, Color Spray, Enlarge Person (we have non-pc's casting this one NOW!) or even Levitate (gianthold has Fly and reverse gravity so technical inadequacies do not substatiate this claim any further).

Instead we can charm a monster factory, or plan for death.

Disappointed in the new spells for Arcanes.

[GeneralDiomedes]

Ok the wizard and sorcer spell updates are just lame. I mean Nightshield is ok, but the Ooze and Spawn spells are about some of the more senseless wastes of creation time I could imagine.

Ooze charming will only end in you being overrun the first time it fights for you, since it's division creates more enemies than you originally had. and spawn screen is a senseless choice of spell when I can just as easily comman undead.


I just outlined a good use for Ooze puppet above.

The Spawn spell is good for battles like Haunted Library with named wraiths. AFAIK wraiths spawned are the same CR so .. isn't it easier just to stop the wraiths from spawning in the first place then trying to Command a CR 15 wraith? Likely the Cleric is going to take the spell anyhow, or scroll it so it's no skin off your back.

And .. what are you going to do when the named wraith kills YOU?

[Mad_Bombardier]

I can think of one VERY good use for it -> the incredibly annoying pudding flenser/render/reaver combos in Threnal. Just charm the pudding, take out the demon and save some wear on your weapon.Until the Reaver splits the Black Pudding on the first hit and you lose control of it and now have to deal with 2 oozes "mucking" up the fight. Pretty much every enemy in the game does slashing or piercing damage and will split oozes.

[Gimpster]

The Spawn spell is good for battles like Haunted Library with named wraiths. AFAIK wraiths spawned are the same CR so
Not really. Battles like that will go one of two ways:
1. You are prepared and know what to expect, so no PCs will die.
2. You are unprepared and don't know what to expect, so you won't have Spawn Screen cast.

Basically the union of players good enough to know when to use Spawn Screen but bad enough to die to a wraith is a very small set. Spawn Screen only improves DDO in terms of PnP completeness, and the spell was already unfavored in PnP. But in PnP, at least, the repercussions of someone spawning into undead were stronger (as the soulstone wouldn't be left for you to raise him, and the new undead might have his memories and knowledge, etc)

[Raithe]

Look at the same example with both Level 20 casters using Heighten.

The DC for the bard is 10 + 6(spell level) + 13(cha) + 2(feats) + 2(item) + 1(song) = 34.
The DC for the sorc is 10 + 9(spell level) + 13(cha) + 2(feats) + 2(item) = 36.

The cost for the bard spell is 35 - 10% (Spellsinger) = 32 = 5.33 SP/ DC.
The cost for the sorc spell is 50 - 20% (ImpHeight3) = 40 = 4.44 SP/ DC.

Net difference, +2 DC for +8 SP = cheaper than the normal rate of 5 SP per spell level/DC increase. Sorc gets higher spell DC for less total cost, so still comes out on top.

Why in the world are you dividing the sp cost by the spell level? Dividing it by the actual DC makes a little sense, but it really depends completely on the will saves of the opponents. The higher the will saves of the opponents, the more efficient higher spell levels become. The lower the will saves, lower spell levels start becoming drastically more efficient.

Which was why I was trying to show that, given the same DC and the same spell (same effectiveness) the bard spell costs less. Given the same cost, a bard can cast a higher level spell that is more effective.

P.S. Using your SP/DC ratio, the bard comes out on top. And that is even assuming that improved heightening continues to work in its current, broken state.

[elraido]

Does angelskin dr stack with other dr? If it does, then I am going to be one very happy camper. 14 dr vs evil with swords....for a pure pally, not too bad.

[Gimpster]

Which was why I was trying to show that, given the same DC and the same spell (same effectiveness) the bard spell costs less. Given the same cost, a bard can cast a higher level spell that is more effective.
No, it does not cost less. For a sorcerer to spend 40 sp on one spell is around 1/3 or less as costly for a bard to cast a 40 sp spell, because sorcs have a lot more mana.

An accurate measurement of inter-class spell costs can't be done by just looking at the number of spellpoints used: you really must go by spells per day.

[Gimpster]

Does angelskin dr stack with other dr? If it does, then I am going to be one very happy camper. 14 dr vs evil with swords....for a pure pally, not too bad.
It does not stack with other DR, except possibly for the DR you get from blocking with a shield.

Also, it is not DR versus evil. It is DR against non-evil, and evil beats it. That is, the DR from Angleskin will work against neutral monsters and most evil monsters (like orcs and Velah), but especially evil monsters (like Flesh Renders and Queen Laliat) will ignore the protection.

[elraido]

It does not stack with other DR, except possibly for the DR you get from blocking with a shield.

Also, it is not DR versus evil. It is DR against non-evil, and evil beats it. That is, the DR from Angleskin will work against neutral monsters and most evil monsters (like orcs and Velah), but especially evil monsters (like Flesh Renders and Queen Laliat) will ignore the protection.

That doesn't make much sence. If a paladin is supposed to kill evil things why wouldn't the dr protect them from evil? LOL

[Gimpster]

That doesn't make much sence. If a paladin is supposed to kill evil things why wouldn't the dr protect them from evil?
Because evil things are supposed to kill paladins.

It turns out that paladins fighting demons both have offense but no defense. The Holy Sword allows a paladin to ignore demon DR, but the monster's evil attacks also ignore his Angleskin defense.

[moorewr]

Naw. Naw! DR 5/evil. That's what the spell says. No need to go all German Tank Designer on it.


It does not stack with other DR, except possibly for the DR you get from blocking with a shield.

Also, it is not DR versus evil. It is DR against non-evil, and evil beats it. That is, the DR from Angleskin will work against neutral monsters and most evil monsters (like orcs and Velah), but especially evil monsters (like Flesh Renders and Queen Laliat) will ignore the protection.

[Solik]

"Prestige Classes" should be choices as important as taking a level in anything else. You shouldn't be able to just switch from one to another on a whim.
Again, this argument just doesn't hold in an MMO environment. This is for the following reasons:

1. PNP D&D has retraining and rebuilding rules (PHB2). You can replace class levels in PNP as you levelup.

2. In PNP campaigns, you can retire your character (one way or another) and bring in an entirely new character one level lower. In DDO, new characters are level 1.


The enhancement version of the system essentially lets you be an assassin one day and a thief-acrobat the next.
Maybe, but optimal character builds will never do this. In order to take full advantage of a given prestige specialization, a character will want to get maximum benefit from the granted abilities and the prerequisites.


The enhancement system prevents you from doing this by limiting you to one "prestige class" at a time.
I don't believe this is entirely true. You are limited to one "prestige class" per class at a time. I have seen nothing that tells me that you can't take a bard prestige specialization and a rogue prestige specialization. For example, a bard 6 / rogue 6 / fighter 2 may be able to take Warchanter and Way of the Assassin.

I can't say for sure that that's true, of course, but based on the information we've been given, that's what I surmise.


Regardless, prestige classes are a large part of D&D 3.5 and ought to be given the development time they deserve.
The time for this has passed. With the current state of the game and its staff, this will never happen. Due to the significantly larger workload required for real PrCs (another poster in this thread listed some good comparisons regarding this), we would never see more than a couple prestige classes. It's just hard reality. We can all whine about it if we want, but unless DDO suddenly quadruples its playerbase and gets a larger staff to go with it, this just isn't possible.

[MysticTheurge]

Again, this argument just doesn't hold in an MMO environment. This is for the following reasons:

1. PNP D&D has retraining and rebuilding rules (PHB2). You can replace class levels in PNP as you levelup.

2. In PNP campaigns, you can retire your character (one way or another) and bring in an entirely new character one level lower. In DDO, new characters are level 1.

Both of these things assume you have a very nice, friendly, (and in the latter case something of a push-over) DM.

Retraining is, even according to PHB2, not something to be done lightly, repeatedly or easily. In short, no you cannot just "replace class levels as you level up."

Likewise, a DM who'd just let you retire a character cause you wanted to (cause you're tired of it or you want to try out your new Build of the Week) probably needs to find a bit more backbone. If you've made some sort of fatal error in your character creation and your character is practically unplayable, then that's what Retraining rules are for and you and your DM ought to work out together what's going to be involved. Starting a brand new character just for the hell of it, mid-campaign, is not something I'd think many people would condone. It seems to me it would lead to players who have no attachment to their characters, or each other's characters, and all-around a group that doesn't really care.

[Drfirewater79]

First, you can change these. I doubt we'll have any real way to respec our level choices, including prestige class choices
Second, now you can mix-and-match more. You won't be locked into one set of benefits, as much.
Third, easier development. It's much easier to implement these little nuggets of Prestige Classes than it is to develop a whole class, put in all the game changes (new icons, new trainers, new web entries, etc etc), and balance it with existing classes as a whole.

: Enhancement lines as prestige classes: you're soaking in it!

first) you cant change prestige classes that would be like me choosing not to take the one level of fighter on my cleric and everythree days change it from cleric to sorc ... prestige classes require feats and skills as well as spcific tributes and quests like some require that you have come in conact *** undead how it would apply here oh maybe with the favor system showing what missions have undead in them and have you beaten one of them.

besides its a level class its called a prestige CLASS showing your exp gathering time was all dedicated and focused on becoming a class of character RPG does anyone know what that means?

second) do you know what i cant believe you would even think that turbine wants us to multi task the only real show that prestige classes are not on there priority list is the extream pregiduce against multi classing as it is in this game

third) i almost agree with you it would be easier development and it would save them some of the anger issues that will happen when people have lvl 20 toons that are only 2 or 3 levels into a 5 or 10 lvl prestige class should they do the job properly and this cop out is a way to give the people what they want faster but my only question wold be this

why would you be only doing bard ones?

prolly the most underestimated class in the game fewer people have bards then clerics and my bet is if they have a bard they played a cleric at least once to at least lvl 9

where are the fighter classes and the paidan classes where are alignment requirements where is evil alignment and will there be the proper bonuses added to our levels a we level or are we gonna have to take so many prestige class enhancements to make up for it that we are gonna have to get rid of all the enhancement bonses we have now?

its not that i am sick of how turbine does this to everything but i still dont like the taste it puts in my mouth



So +5 holy (+3 holy of righteousness) easily available in AH or pawn shops, but I'm gonna cast a spell to save on repair costs? A level 6 +1 greater bane is +5+3d6, not +5 +2d6. When ppl "hunt" for greater banes they hunt for +3s/ alignment/elemental greater banes which puts em at least 2d6 more than a +5 holy.


greater bane holy(burst) weapons are the best weapons in the game by far

i have a +2 holy greataxe of greater monsterious humanoid bane and mino caves i see some nice damage out of there considering i am not a barb and god forbid they him me and give me madstone he he he he he

what that is is +2 enhancement to hit and damage +greataxe damage +powerattack damage + 2d6 of holy and 3d6 of greater bane then x3 on a crit of 19-20 (physical damage only unfortunatly) its not hard to see 140 on a fighter with one level of ranger but there are better weapons available like oh i dont know +5 shocking burst greatsword of cloudburst (1d100 usually hits between 50-70) where its possible to hit over 190 without any barbarian bonuses

but unless you have one of them holy greater banes will do just fine for me he he he

[Solik]

Retraining is, even according to PHB2, not something to be done lightly, repeatedly or easily. In short, no you cannot just "replace class levels as you level up."
There is a logical gap here. The latter statement does not follow from the former statement.


Likewise, a DM who'd just let you retire a character cause you wanted to (cause you're tired of it or you want to try out your new Build of the Week) probably needs to find a bit more backbone. If you've made some sort of fatal error in your character creation and your character is practically unplayable, then that's what Retraining rules are for and you and your DM ought to work out together what's going to be involved. Starting a brand new character just for the hell of it, mid-campaign, is not something I'd think many people would condone. It seems to me it would lead to players who have no attachment to their characters, or each other's characters, and all-around a group that doesn't really care.
I couldn't possibly disagree with this more. The goal of D&D is to have fun, and if the player finds he isn't having a lot of fun after all with this character, then he should make a new one. It isn't even a question of whether the DM should allow it or not -- if the DM sees this, he should suggest it.

Obviously that doesn't mean a player should be constantly making new characters; that's disruptive to game flow and eats up a bunch of time. But as long as it doesn't go overboard, players should be able to replace their characters all they want, and that's the end of the story. I'd never play under a DM who tried to lord over the game by controlling stuff like that.

Besides, the DM can't really stop it anyways. Assuming he's running a remotely lethal (read: challenging) game, it is extremely easy for a player to die if they want (and often difficult to avoid if they don't). It's even easy to fake. If I was somehow forced to play under a controlling DM who tried to disallow rerolling, I'm quite confident I could pretend to be having fun and make a "mistake" that results in my character's death.

[Gimpster]

Likewise, a DM who'd just let you retire a character cause you wanted to (cause you're tired of it or you want to try out your new Build of the Week) probably needs to find a bit more backbone.
The DMs in PnP almost never have you repeating the same adventure. They always have something new- or even if they try to repeat an adventure, it will likely go very differently.

Since DDO does not have anywhere near the same level of new content, it is even more important they allow easy respeccing than in PnP. That way, at least if players can't vary the quests they can still vary the character they use.

[MysticTheurge]

The goal of D&D is to have fun, and if the player finds he isn't having a lot of fun after all with this character, then he should make a new one. It isn't even a question of whether the DM should allow it or not -- if the DM sees this, he should suggest it.

Obviously that doesn't mean a player should be constantly making new characters; that's disruptive to game flow and eats up a bunch of time.

I actually pretty much agree with you here. The trick is finding the balance. There are some people who will abuse your willingness to do what you describe in the first paragraph resulting in the situation you describe in the second. As a DM it is part of your responsibility to, at some point, be controlling in terms of what you will and will not allow. That's simply inevitable. You shouldn't abuse that power, any more than your players should abuse your leniency, but at some point you're going to run into a situation where you have to put your foot down.

There are also other factors to consider in how exactly the process of making a new character has to work. Of course, when you bring a new character to an existing campaign you're going to be placed about at the appropriate level. It would be absurd to do otherwise. How could you possibly play a 1st level character in a campaign built for the other 3-5 14th level characters in the group. That obviously doesn't work.

But DDO isn't a "campaign" in the sense we're all used to. It actually simultaneously offers a game appropriate for 1st and 14th levle characters. So you can actually play that new 1st level character where you couldn't in D&D. So at that point, which is the right thing to do, allow the player in question to make a new character at 1st level? Or allow the player in question to make a new character at any level they've previously reached? I think a pretty good case could be made for either one.

[EspyLacopa]

It's even easy to fake. If I was somehow forced to play under a controlling DM who tried to disallow rerolling, I'm quite confident I could pretend to be having fun and make a "mistake" that results in my character's death.

Imagine if you started to do that, and actually failed to do so. repeatedly.

That alone would be funny and and would be quite the story to tell. The suicidal party member that just won't die.

[Aesop]

Imagine if you started to do that, and actually failed to do so. repeatedly.

That alone would be funny and and would be quite the story to tell. The suicidal party member that just won't die.

I've had them in the party occassionally ... though they are more prevailent in LARPS :)

Aesop

[Kyrien]

i would roll one with a human

go 12bard/2barbarian or maybe 10bard/4barbarian

it could be pretty tough for a tank or off-tank damage dealer

no cc, just a "warchanter"

Not really sure I'd want a Bard in my party that didn't have IA3. I have a Bard13/Fighter 1 that's been fun so far.

[Solik]

Imagine if you started to do that, and actually failed to do so. repeatedly.

That alone would be funny and and would be quite the story to tell. The suicidal party member that just won't die.
I think it would start becoming fun, at least :)


At any rate, regarding the discussion--

Sure, a case can be made either way, and we need a solution that's somewhere in the middle that works well for an MMO.

Like, oh, I dunno... disallowing base class level respecs, but allowing easy configuration detail changes, including enhancement-implemented PrCs ;)

[GeneralDiomedes]

Not really. Battles like that will go one of two ways:
1. You are prepared and know what to expect, so no PCs will die.
2. You are unprepared and don't know what to expect, so you won't have Spawn Screen cast.

Basically the union of players good enough to know when to use Spawn Screen but bad enough to die to a wraith is a very small set. Spawn Screen only improves DDO in terms of PnP completeness, and the spell was already unfavored in PnP. But in PnP, at least, the repercussions of someone spawning into undead were stronger (as the soulstone wouldn't be left for you to raise him, and the new undead might have his memories and knowledge, etc)

However, if you are a good cleric with a bad party, take Spawn Screen ;)

[Solik]

The true value of Spawn Screen, IMO, will be in the form of clickies and constant-effect items.

[tone]

Is way of the Assassin a melee attack only?? or can it be used with ranged??

[Rog]

my bard lunarsong is spec for umd and haggle buffed umd is 40 buffed haggle is 49. the new song if stack with g hero and able to cast on myself could really be nice giving me a umd of 41 and a haggle of 50 if i can manage to get that +2 umd that give me a umd of 43 that would rock who knows how hi the next level scrolls going to be to umd.
lunarsong
from the mysterious realms of khyber

[Rog]

i will not respect my bard to get this i will settle for a +1 skill boost if it stacks sort of a bummer the what your asking us to spec in for it had no place in a bard build i know of so your asking us the destroy are builds to advance on to new builds:(): my bard is Perfect the way he is i would love to upgrade him so i guess u need to increase the level cap so i can have more action points to spend or give me back those 4 bonus points u took when upgraded to the new point system.

[juniorpfactors]

Maels thats why I am a spell singer battle bard...all ya have to do is invite me..... Doctorjrp is on the way up.......

can you find me and decent armor...+2/+3/+4 twilight mithril fullplate would help me stay alive longer....

[Drfirewater79]

Spells for Paladins:
Angelskin
Abjuration [Good]
Level: Pal 2
Components: V, S, DF
Target: Lawful Good creature touched (self or ally)
Duration: 6 seconds/level
The subject gains damage reduction 5/evil.

---Um your kidding right? Customers can't have Messiah as a name. I doubt Angel anything meets the EULA. How about Holyskin, Defense from Evil, GoodyGoodyskin, LGisn'tsoStupidnowisitskin?
:p

normaly i would be all for the EULA distruction of religious advertising in games however have you even looked at a dnd gods list the ones that are not made up completly are from ancient religions

angels are not the same in dnd as they are in several religions they are outsiders there are devils too and demons its not a religious use of the word its just a race of outsider take it easy

messiah is a specific name pegged to a specific group of faiths and that is why its not allowed

and knowing is half the battle

[Freeman]

messiah is a specific name pegged to a specific group of faiths and that is why its not allowed

Yep, and we don't want the people who publish the Dune books coming after Turbine, do we? ;)

Now if only Quizats would start playing again :(

[Drfirewater79]

Yep, and we don't want the people who publish the Dune books coming after Turbine, do we? ;)

Now if only Quizats would start playing again :(

lol god forbid someone has the name thor (oh wait someone does)

cause thats not a religious name lol some people just got to learn to forget it the problem with this game is not what names we can or cant have because of this or that anti/pro religious or political orginization its what we cant have because the dev's have never read a dnd book that doesnt say Players handbook or Dungeon masters guide


Personally i cant wait to see them tackle some real classes like Warmage (complete arcane) or true necromancer (hero's of horror) and god forbid they actually do some ebberon classes (swashbuckler class from races of ebberon)

not that i am majorly disappointed with there work thus far but i hope once we are capped at lvl 20 (promised to be there before march 2008 around the same time they figure druids will be near completion)

i hope we can get some new classes more frequently monks are soon but i hope we are not gonna get only one class and one race per year of subscription cause this game is already getting kind of old and alot of players are sleeping through missions

[MysticTheurge]

the dev's have never read a dnd book that doesnt say Players handbook or Dungeon masters guide

This is so patently false, it's laughable.

Go check the sources on some of our spells and feats.

Or you know, Warforged.

:rolleyes:

[Talon_Moonshadow]

Nightshield
Abjuration
Level: Clr 1, Sor/Wiz 1
Components: V, S
Range: Personal
Duration: 1 minute/level

Grants a +1 resistance bonus to saves; this resistance bonus increases to +2 at caster level 6th and +3 at caster level 9th. In addition, this spell negates Magic Missile and Force Missile attacks directed at you.


I am very happy to see this, I was so tried have having to use my shield cookies or other items to cast a protection from Magic Missiles and Force Missile since the sheild spell in game does protect against Force Missile.

Yes this spell does devate from the PnP one, but by only adding Force Missile protection. For that matter, since I just looked it up the Sheild spell doesn't protect against Force Missile either, but it does in DDO.

I say leave it be, it can always be dispelled off someone.

Guys, am I missing something? Is this a problem? Granted my two main toons are a wizard and a ranger/rogue/wizard who both have shield cast on them as often as possible.......but I never did to protect me from MM or especially FM.....excepy for VON4, I can't think of a time when these spells were ever a serious threat to be worried about.....am I wrong?

And before Gianthold. monsters never cast any serious buffs at all. The Devs just made certain creatures immune to whatever they wanted......so I would be shocked to see monsters using this spell.

[Gimpster]

And before Gianthold. monsters never cast any serious buffs at all. The Devs just made certain creatures immune to whatever they wanted......so I would be shocked to see monsters using this spell.
Monsters already cast this spell. You'll be shocked.

[Talon_Moonshadow]

Erm, who relies on Magic Missile? Aside from a few bosses with broad energy resistance, who ever uses it? It's not good either in DPS or DPM.

That's what I was trying to say.....glad I'm not the only one to think of this.

[Blakinik_Norguild]

Unholy Blight
Evocation [Evil]
Level: Clr 4
Components: V, S
Saving Throw: Will partial, see text.

You call up unholy power to smite your enemies. This spell deals 1d8 points of damage per two caster levels (max 5d8) to good creatures (or 1d6 points of damage per caster level (max 10d6) to good outsiders) and sickens them for a short period of time. A successful Will save reduces the damage by half and negates the sicken effect. The spell deals only half damage to creatures that are neither good nor evil, and they are not sickened. Such creatures can reduce the damage by half again (down to one quarter) with a successful Will save. This spell deals no damage to evil creatures, and can only be cast by evil or neutral casters - it has no effect when cast by a good caster.

So we can start making evil characters I take it as well? Noticed alot of evil aligned spells being brought in....

[The_Cataclysm]

So we can start making evil characters I take it as well? Noticed alot of evil aligned spells being brought in....

That's only 1 evil aligned spell which can be used by neutral characters.

[Talon_Moonshadow]

We can debate the "right mind" part, but here's my reason:

I play a Warforged Wizard, and my regular bodyguard is an Improved Fort Warforged Fighter. Its my job to keep him vertical, its his job to keep me from making concentration checks to keep him vertical.

I'm specced out in repair, because he is very good at holding aggro. Speccing out in repair by the rules of the game mean I'm mostly specced out in force anyway, so I dump the few extra AP in to get force crits.

My force missiles and magic missiles do respectable damage. Not nearly as much as it would versus a vulnerability, but what I pay in lower damage output, I gain by not having to worry about what I'm hitting.

This spell, depending on how crazy-go-nuts the Devs go, can pretty much eliminate what little use my enhancements may have when not running with WF tanks.

Your reason makes perfect sense.....but I think you are the only true warforged healer(repairer) in the game. :(
(Other than the 1st lvl wizard I made to take the mark of making dragonmark anyway)

[Blakinik_Norguild]

That's only 1 evil aligned spell which can be used by neutral characters.

D'oh!

Your right. I was seeing Chaotic and thinking evil... Muah Bad.

[Talon_Moonshadow]

No, you are incorrect. Skill Focus perform will NOT meet the prerequisites for your songs. You need the minimum RANKS in the skill, which means to gain the bard songs, you must spend the required number of skill points to reach that level. Skill Focus: Perform does NOTHING to help you in the game whatsoever. You may not mind taking a pre-req that does nothing, but considering that no other class or race has to do that, I don't see why bards alone should have to. If it had some benefit, even if it was something I didn't need, I wouldn't mind it. But as long as it has zero benefit, they shouldn't make it a requirement for something.

I have yet to get a bard above 4th, but I was under the impression that perform skill affected the DC of facinate at least......and I thought it increased the other song buffs too.
Can someone tell me for sure if these people are right? Is perform really useless? For instance, is a +10 perform ring completely useless in DDO?

[The_Cataclysm]

I have yet to get a bard above 4th, but I was under the impression that perform skill affected the DC of facinate at least......and I thought it increased the other song buffs too.
Can someone tell me for sure if these people are right? Is perform really useless? For instance, is a +10 perform ring completely useless in DDO?

There is no DC for fascinate in DDO.

[Talon_Moonshadow]

you're missing something: Turbine is giving us a bastardized version of the spell.

it would be incorrect to call it "lazy coding" but that's what it comes off as. instead of giving us Holy Sword, the d20 SRD spell.
we get holy sword, the Paladin equivalent to Flame Arrow, which poo-poos on our hopes and dreams of spells that actually enhance items (not to mention all Artificer infusions) like Keen Edge, or Magic Weapon.

I'm not sure, but I think people just want to make their +1 vorpal into a +5 Holy Vorpal.

And from reading this thread, I think I'm the only guy without a bankful of vorpals (since I don't have even one)

[Talon_Moonshadow]

Incorrect. Fascinate in DDO has no DC at all. There's nothing to modify: you sing, they get mezzed. No save, no SR, no nothing.

Are you guys sure about this? My limited experiance was that a lowbie bard couldn't facinate hardly anything....and I'm sure he couldn't facinate everything that was attacking him.....seemd like some saved and some didn't.

When I saw high level bard use facinate to great success, I assumed they had a high perfom skill....complete with +10 perform rings etc.

[MysticTheurge]

Are you guys sure about this?

Yes.

[Talon_Moonshadow]

Incorrect. Fascinate in DDO has no DC at all. There's nothing to modify: you sing, they get mezzed. No save, no SR, no nothing.

If this was true, thej it would mean that a lowbie bard could walk into a PvP area and facinate lvl 14 chars...........is this happening? I don't PvP much, but I don't think it is.

[MysticTheurge]

is this happening?

Yes.

[Talon_Moonshadow]

Monsters already cast this spell. You'll be shocked.

I don't cast MM much because it does not do much damage compared to the hitpoints the mobs have....and I haven't even tried FM yet.... but from what I've seen Magic Missile will damage everything except red named bosses in certain quests. And only those that seem to be immune to all low lvl spells. I know MM will damage Wisperdoom....although she is resistant for some reason...but she is not immune. And I've never seen a run of the mill mob monster be immune to MM.
But, I admit I don't usue it much anymore, so I could be wrong.

Still, until the Gianthold quests, I never saw monsters cast any serious buffs. If fact, I still don't know why the devs thought the firewall scrolls were such a problem, when all the monsters had to do was buff themselves with fire prot/resist.....just like every player does.
I guess my real point was that most monsters don't cast buffs at all.....so why worry about them castng this one?

[Aesop]

I'm not sure, but I think people just want to make their +1 vorpal into a +5 Holy Vorpal.

And from reading this thread, I think I'm the only guy without a bankful of vorpals (since I don't have even one)

Don't worry you're not the only one... I don't have one either... In fact I just got my first Cursespewer a couple of weeks ago. Still don't have any of the Big 5

B.D.P.S.V.

I don't even have a Destruction weapon

I just get crud loot drops

Aesop

[Voxreal]

the new spells oare cool and all but when are we going to see some basic spells like silence and fly that we are able to cast?

[Lorien_the_First_One]

the new spells oare cool and all but when are we going to see some basic spells like silence and fly that we are able to cast?

I'd guess never. Fly (or heck, the basic rope/climbing skills) would turn several key quests into easy to bypass fun due to the simplistic way they were built. In Cruicible for example you would just climb/fly up and wipe out all the attackers overhead in the maze and then drop back to the end of the maze so you could complete the objective. No silly door switches while being pummelled from overhead. In VON2 you could skip the maze and 2 of the beholders entirely as well as avoiding falling off with a basic fly spell.

Nope, not gonna happen.

[MysticTheurge]

Fly (or heck, the basic rope/climbing skills) would turn several key quests into easy to bypass fun due to the simplistic way they were built.

As a DM you simply manage this by finding reasons why Fly won't work. You shouldn't do it all the time, but in some cases it's perfectly reasonable. Like in the Crucible maze. Either make it a no-fly zone (magic of some sort) or give it a one-way roof; you can fall down, but you can't fly up.

[Drfirewater79]

This is so patently false, it's laughable.

Go check the sources on some of our spells and feats.

Or you know, Warforged.

:rolleyes:

ok let me clear it up warforged and some of the spells and feats that are not from the basic players handbook or the basic dungeon masters guide are found in the Ebberon players handbook and the ebberon dungeon masters guide

the only other books i see them using myself if MMI MMII and there messed up version of creatures (which i love ) that dont belong in any books that i know of

i own the spell compendium all the complete books and almost all the asseccory and race books up until march of last year

and to tell ya the truth there isnt much if anything that comes from anything other then a book that says players handbook (be it ebberon ravenloft or the desert one or oriental adventures or etc) or the DMG or MM/FF books

but please if you know something let me know i would love to look it up



dragon marks at least where a step in the right direction but really a non role playing straight power toon weather fighter or caster cant afford to waste feats to get a tattoo i mean really why the hell would my dwarf fighter want a dragon mark when he could be taking dual weilding or power attack or cleave or specializations or improved crit ....... dragon marks suck for the most part

how about spend the next year going one book at a time and making a update just for it like a complete arcane update or a races of dragon update or a herros of horror linked to a bunch of undead missions and missions made to spook and fear introduce lycanthropy and have it so when we get bit until we die there is a chance we will change into a wolf which would be a great lead in for druid next year and dont come out with one race and class a year man take a couple months of updates off giving out loot weekends in there place and come out with a new race or class every three months there is so much people want to see that you cant possibly be out of ideas and there are so many people that have faith in the future of this game and the possibilities are endless as to how this game could one day be the best mmo available instead of just another game to play so i dont go to WOW

i mean shoot make us pay for it if ya want put a group together that works just on implamenting new races and classes to the game and put out paid expansions if you dont buy it you cant play as the races or classes and maybe be locked out of the city where you train as one at higher levels that way people can still play with there current account if they are happy with there options and the things they will be missing out on and others can happily throw there money at you for whatever advantages come with the update

and please if this is your plan for what to do after we hit 20 then please say it so we can stop wondering if we will ever see the races and monster races that we love to play in pen and paper dnd or the classes that we all figured would be in this game at launch considering NWN2 had most of them on there list of garunteed classes and races months before launch (I knew about NWN2 having warmages before ddo came out and nwn didnt come out for almost what 5-7 months after ddo launch?

not trying to be pushy but it seems the future of this game and its development (what these forums are listed as) never seems to get any feedback as to what you the dev;s are taking to heart and really we want to know what you have planned we dont want to waste our money playing the game hoping that one day you will do something we want to have you say yes warmages are planned for the future dont know when yet but possibly next year some time after druids

or

no we are not currently looking at any other races or classes this year

just let us know what to expect maybe make a dev created post called the future of ddo question and answer

[EspyLacopa]

and to tell ya the truth there isnt much if anything that comes from anything other then a book that says players handbook (be it ebberon ravenloft or the desert one or oriental adventures or etc) or the DMG or MM/FF books

but please if you know something let me know i would love to look it up

From the Spell Compendium:
Night Shield
Force Missiles
Nimbus of Light
Deific Vengeance
Recitation
Cometfall

So yea. . .they do indeed use other sources. Most of those are originally from the various Complete books.

[MysticTheurge]

So yea. . .they do indeed use other sources. Most of those are originally from the various Complete books.

If nothing else, the plotlines of DDO indicate a pretty good reading of the ECS.

[shoebox747]

It would be nice if they would of given a ranger some new spells. Mass Barkskin would be nice

Leader of Clan of the Green Dragon
Shoebox level 12 ranger / lever 2 fighter
Shoepolish level 6 cleric

[Aspenor]

Question: How does Spawn Screen currently fit into the game?

If you die after being touched by a wraith for certain period of time, your soul will rise as a wraith to attack your party members. This spell prevents that.

[studentx]

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/angel.htm

Thanks for the D20 link, but you missed the point and perhaps the humor Devaskin would be fine though its not nearly as funny LGisn'tsoStupidnowisit_skin.

[MysticTheurge]

Thanks for the D20 link, but you missed the point and perhaps the humor Devaskin would be fine though its not nearly as funny LGisn'tsoStupidnowisit_skin.

Hmm, perhaps you missed the first portion of the page:


Angel

Angels are a race of celestials, beings who live on the good-aligned Outer Planes.

Angels can be of any good alignment. Regardless of their alignment, angels never lie, cheat, or steal. They are impeccably honorable in all their dealings and often prove the most trustworthy and diplomatic of all the celestials.

All angels are blessed with comely looks, though their actual appearances vary widely.

Angels speak Celestial, Infernal, and Draconic, though they can speak with almost any creature because of their tongues ability.

Combat

In combat, most angels make full use of their mobility and their ability to attack at a distance.

Angel Traits

An angel possesses the following traits (unless otherwise noted in a creature’s entry).

* Darkvision out to 60 feet and low-light vision.
* Immunity to acid, cold, and petrification.
* Resistance to electricity 10 and fire 10.
* +4 racial bonus on saves against poison.
* Protective Aura (Su): Against attacks made or effects created by evil creatures, this ability provides a +4 deflection bonus to AC and a +4 resistance bonus on saving throws to anyone within 20 feet of the angel. Otherwise, it functions as a magic circle against evil effect and a lesser globe of invulnerability, both with a radius of 20 feet (caster level equals angel’s HD). This aura can be dispelled, but the angel can create it again as a free action on its next turn. (The defensive benefits from the circle are not included in an angel’s statistics block.)
* Tongues (Su): All angels can speak with any creature that has a language, as though using a tongues spell (caster level equal to angel’s Hit Dice). This ability is always active.

The point being, "Angel" is a standard D&D term. Just as much as devils, demons, constructs, aberrations and so on.

[dungeonrat07]

When are you going to have the real spells like fly, polymorph, and spider climb and a few others? Also when do wizard become something besides a buffing dispenser for the batman types? At the same time you fix the lag issue!! Also I have the book Eberron campaign settings you know the setting this game is base off and in that game wizards have feats that allowe them to make their own magic items being scrolls, wands, potion, or encahnted items. Also the dragon mark allowes wizards to repair their own items and to make items as well. Why not that or will hurt your sales from mmobay.com. I have been palying this game for a year now and I am ready to quit! When I play the game I want to do the quest too. instead of just buffing the batman types and watch them kill everything with their vorpal weapons or disrupertor weapons, what do I get more buffing spells and a oozes danceing spell wow!!!!

[EspyLacopa]

When are you going to have the real spells like fly, polymorph, and spider climb and a few others? Also when do wizard become something besides a buffing dispenser for the batman types?
Not all wizards are buff dispensers, only the ones that want to be.


At the same time you fix the lag issue!!*shrug*


Also I have the book Eberron campaign settings you know the setting this game is base off and in that game wizards have feats that allowe them to make their own magic items being scrolls, wands, potion, or encahnted items. Also the dragon mark allowes wizards to repair their own items and to make items as well. Why not that or will hurt your sales from mmobay.com.Crafting feats are from the Player's Handbook, not the Eberron Campaign Setting, and no sites like that are not affiliated with Turbine.


I have been palying this game for a year now and I am ready to quit!Then do so. If you aren't enjoying this game, then it's not really a game for you anymore, is it?


When I play the game I want to do the quest too. instead of just buffing the batman types and watch them kill everything with their vorpal weapons or disrupertor weapons, what do I get more buffing spells and a oozes danceing spell wow!!!!You already mentioned this.

[Drfirewater79]

From the Spell Compendium:
Night Shield
Force Missiles
Nimbus of Light
Deific Vengeance
Recitation
Cometfall

So yea. . .they do indeed use other sources. Most of those are originally from the various Complete books.

ok its good to know they have at least read the spell compendium

but if they did they why not include the easy to mod spells like imdomitability one minute/level kinda speaks for itself as to what the timer would be on it

or how about vigor or the orb spells

what i am trying to say is that we are being strung around with the idea of one day we might have and yet the dev's give us no more then one month of notice and then deliver late anyway why not just say hey this is the plans for the next year month by month and that way we could give our imput on future tasks so that they could be implamented the way the people want (thus increasing popularity and getting more new players and keeping old ones)

and another thing what is with a year and a half before we get a new class?

whats with only one race added in a year and a half ?

cant say there hasnt been calling for it i remember them saying monk in paid expansion with gnome and halforc last march

well its obvious they want to figure out some way for weapons not to matter as much so monks can take better advantage of unarmed combat and thus need to individualize there strike mechanic to fit a more tumble martial arts feel cause they know people like me would really be ****ed if we did that lame punch punch kick mechanic they use now on fighters and casters alike in unarmed combat (fighters with no weapons should still look better then a caster with no weapons in a fight)

really my only issue is never knowing what there planning and what we say seems to mean nothing cause rarely get a reply when we do say something

or maybe its just me lol

[Drfirewater79]

one more thing

someone said that with 4.2 we will be able to buy pots in stacks when is that happening and are you gonna release cure critical pots?

[MeNorel]

It would be nice if they would of given a ranger some new spells. Mass Barkskin would be nice

Leader of Clan of the Green Dragon
Shoebox level 12 ranger / lever 2 fighter
Shoepolish level 6 cleric

I'm always game for new spells to play with but most are Meh, at the higher lvls like Snare and Thorny Growth (this one really more annoying than anything since it hardly ever casts at ground lvl and really does cause a visual issue.)

I want my ranger companion, one that I can bring along and lvl up along with me, the summon nature's ally is really a poor attempt to replace the companion even buffed to the hilt most of them don't survive very long at any level and if they do they rarely contirbute to the party getting killed if they are lucky enough to even beable to hit a mob in the higher lvls.

[The_Cataclysm]

one more thing

someone said that with 4.2 we will be able to buy pots in stacks when is that happening and are you gonna release cure critical pots?

That is Mod 5 that they are changing that. I doubt they are adding those potions though.

[EspyLacopa]

ok its good to know they have at least read the spell compendium
Uhhh. If you didn't read it totally, you'd notice that those spells generally come originally from other books. The spell compendium is more a collection from the various extra books so that you don't have to go through all those other books to find spells. Actually read the part near the back. It goes into the various sources it uses.

For example, Nimbus of Light, Deific Vengeance, and Cometfall are all from the Complete Divine.

It is quite likely that when they look for new spells to add, they look at spells in the Player's Handbook and the Spell Compendium, since that covers so much that for now, there's very little need to look elsewheres.


but if they did they why not include the easy to mod spells like imdomitability one minute/level kinda speaks for itself as to what the timer would be on it What about the graphics? And giving some monsters here and there the ability to use it?

As it is, they've been adding new spells with pretty much every single named update.

There's about. . . .800+ spells in the Spell Compendium. Even if they comitted to having 100 new spells each major update, it'd require 8 of those to have them all.

And that'd probably take up nearly all their resources, so we wouldn't get any other new content during that.

[MysticTheurge]

what i am trying to say is that we are being strung around with the idea of one day we might have and yet the dev's give us no more then one month of notice and then deliver late anyway why not just say hey this is the plans for the next year month by month and that way we could give our imput on future tasks so that they could be implamented the way the people want (thus increasing popularity and getting more new players and keeping old ones)

Which may be a valid complaint, but has nothing to do with your initial assertion that the Devs haven't read anything but the PHB and the DMG. :rolleyes:

And seriously, cure critical potions? Maybe you should read the DMG.

[EspyLacopa]

Which may be a valid complaint, but has nothing to do with your initial assertion that the Devs haven't read anything but the PHB and the DMG. :rolleyes:

And seriously, cure critical potions? Maybe you should read the DMG.

Actually MT, That rule is in the Player's Handbook, in the description for the Brew Potion feat.

[MysticTheurge]

Actually MT, That rule is in the Player's Handbook, in the description for the Brew Potion feat.

Well, it's in both places then, cause it's also in the DMG under the description of potions. ;)

[EspyLacopa]

Well, it's in both places then, cause it's also in the DMG under the description of potions. ;)

Then I guess the guy who wanted Cure Critical potions should read better.

[dungeonrat07]

Not all wizards are buff dispensers, only the ones that want to be.

*shrug*

Crafting feats are from the Player's Handbook, not the Eberron Campaign Setting, and no sites like that are not affiliated with Turbine.

Then do so. If you aren't enjoying this game, then it's not really a game for you anymore, is it?

You already mentioned this.

Yes I know they are from the players hand book but it is also in the Eberron book aswell and by the way I have both books. Yes you are right it is time for me to move on and find something elseto do! Thank you and have a good day

[GreatWyrm15]

When is this update actually coming out?:confused:

[EspyLacopa]

When is this update actually coming out?:confused:
Should be this week.

[moorewr]

When is this update actually coming out?:confused:

Aren't we all, aren't we all...

[Mad_Bombardier]

Should be this week.Pushed back to next week for additional QA.

[GreatWyrm15]

When are you going to have the real spells like fly, polymorph, and spider climb and a few others? Also when do wizard become something besides a buffing dispenser for the batman types? At the same time you fix the lag issue!! Also I have the book Eberron campaign settings you know the setting this game is base off and in that game wizards have feats that allowe them to make their own magic items being scrolls, wands, potion, or encahnted items. Also the dragon mark allowes wizards to repair their own items and to make items as well. Why not that or will hurt your sales from mmobay.com. I have been palying this game for a year now and I am ready to quit! When I play the game I want to do the quest too. instead of just buffing the batman types and watch them kill everything with their vorpal weapons or disrupertor weapons, what do I get more buffing spells and a oozes danceing spell wow!!!!

Stop whining. There are plenty of non-buff spells for wizards like disentegrate, PK, Finger of Death, CK, Tensers Transformation. The list just goes on and on. So grow up, stop whining and just use those if u don't want to buff

[dungeonrat07]

Who are you to tell me any thing? Grow up! you do not know me and I pay my money just like you. If I have a problem I am going to say something about it and I do not care if you like it or not. If you ever played a wizard you would know were I am comeing from and the list does not go on and on. Also why do I or anybody else have to be second string to you or the other batman types, the game is not just about you guys.

[MysticTheurge]

the game is not just about you guys.

The game is, largely, what you make of it.

[Conejo]

When is this update actually coming out?:confused:

June. :mad:

[Molotov]

[QUOTE=dungeonrat07;1238761] the reast of you guys can go and take a flying leap!!! [QUOTE]

tell em how you feel why don't ya

[GreatWyrm15]

Who are you to tell me any thing? Grow up! you do not know me and I pay my money just like you. If I have a problem I am going to say something about it and I do not care if you like it or not. If you ever played a wizard you would know were I am comeing from and the list does not go on and on. Also why do I or anybody else have to be second string to you or the other batman types, the game is not just about you guys.

My main IS A WIZARD

[Vendra]

I only really have a comment for the new healing spell close wounds. Granted in the PnP its way overpowered for a second level spell because of the little bit of text that says 'if you cast this right after an ally takes damage it immediately negates the damage' so that’s that tank, you just got hit with a maximized and empowered polar ray, no problem I just cast this level 2 spell and all that damage is immediately negated. However there is of course no way to really do this in the online version and even with the fast casting time that you have set up for it there is still the 1 second timer between spells we have to deal with. It’s a complete waste of a second level spell in the online version because it heals so very little. Unless there is a way to improve it its really a waste of time and I would rather have the spell “resist elements mass” which is a 3rd level spell from the spell compendium.

[Mad_Bombardier]

I would rather have the spell “resist elements mass” which is a 3rd level spell from the spell compendium.Resist Energy, Mass is a 4th level spell in the Spell Compendium.

[Vendra]

Resist Energy, Mass is a 4th level spell in the Spell Compendium.

I have the book open right now and we are both correct. Its a Clerc 3, sorc/wiz 4, druid 3

[Mad_Bombardier]

I have the book open right now and we are both correct. Its a Cleric 3, sorc/wiz 4, druid 3:D Yay, I was half-right!

On topic: Dang that's dumb. Who keeps adding Mass spells with only +1 or +2 spell level anyway? Most are +3 or +4 spell levels, right? +3/+4 makes a lot more sense to me.

[MysticTheurge]

On topic: Dang that's dumb. Who keeps adding Mass spells with only +1 or +2 spell level anyway? Most are +3 or +4 spell levels, right? +3/+4 makes a lot more sense to me.

Mass Aid is only +1 or 2 levels, because it's really Bless + Mass a few bonus HPs. It's just not that powerful in relation to Bless to warrant a significantly higher level.

That said, Mass SoF is 4th to SoF's 1st. Mass SR is 7th to SR's 4th.

Mass Resist Energy ought to be at least 4th probably actually 5th.

[Mad_Bombardier]

Mass Aid is only +1 or 2 levels, because it's really Bless + Mass a few bonus HPs. It's just not that powerful in relation to Bless to warrant a significantly higher level.Right, and Magic Circle Against Evil (Protection from Evil: Mass in DDO) is only 2 levels above. I know its two completely different spells in PnP.

I can see Resist Energy: Mass as level 3 for Rangers because they only have 4 levels of spells and they get Resist Energy at level 1 (varying caster level durations aside). But +1 spell level for level 3 Cleric/Druid spell is just silly. Yes, should be a level 4 or even level 5 spell. +3/+4 spell levels should be the norm.

[Sortis1986]

This is a post to the designers of the game and the programers. You guys keep saying your going to fix the lag and the last up grade was to fix those issues then how come it is still going on? Let me tell how I see it and that is you guys are not able to deliver as promised. So turbine you company name is on the line and you need to start fireing people to get the job done, then do it. Also there are good programers in Inda and China look there. Poeple are quiting the game for that and other reasons and you are getting bad reviews in game stop and ohter sites. The ball is in your court I will log back on in three months and I will bet a hundred dollares that lag will still be an issue!!! And you guys wonder why people are leaveing you think looting a place over an over is a saleing point how shallow. Also I hate going to the forum and posting my issues here because what I have to say is to you guys and no else. See you in three months and you guys have my email address if you want to take me up on my bet!! Have a good day

First off nobody should be fired because of your temper tantrums with the servers. Grow up its a game. Its also a very real time oriented game which means their is going to be lag...your expecting a real time console game. Well I hate to tell you this bud but the only reason consoles run that well in real time is because they arent loading what 6-12 other people are doing as well.

I can sympathize partly because you are ignorant of technology. Your one of those people that get ****ed because the computer doesnt load fast enough for you. Technology has its limits and if your not willing to accept that then dont come back in 3 months and waste anyones time or money. Frankly I didnt log into the forums today so I could see someone cry like a child in the night. You think your going to post something as ignorant as that and get away with it...I dont think so.

[Freeman]

...

There are so many ways I could respond to this, but I think I'll go with the short version: LOL :p

[Mad_Bombardier]

<snipped to meet forum guidelines>Did you just come into a Developer's thread and talk about items you'd buy from third-party vendors? :eek: Wow, that's ummm... well, I hope you enjoy your account(s) before they're banned. :rolleyes:

[MysticTheurge]

Did you just come into a Developer's thread and talk about items you'd buy from third-party vendors? :eek: Wow, that's ummm... well, I hope you enjoy your account(s) before they're banned. :rolleyes:

Just as a reminder, it's against forum guidelines to quote things which are against the forum guidelines.

[THACO]

Can't we all just learn to get along? Now play nice. :)

[dungeonrat07]

Does this mean I can not buy the D&D under wear?

[gserlenga]

When's 4.2 coming out? My rogue needs the search/spot love, the 7 combo slots, and the "fix" for elemental damage weapons breaking sneak attack :p

[dungeonrat07]

I am going to state what I want. MORE SPELLS. Spell like fly, spider climb, polymorph, and danceing lights to name a few. The save or die spell are ok but that is more a Sorcerer thing than a wizard thing. That is just how it is and I do not care about that. Also I choose the dragon mark of makeing which in the dice game has more to it than repairing warforges. There are also feats that let the wizard who has them to make magic items like scrolls, potions, wands, and enchanted items. I wonder why a wizard would want that? Maybe because they would increase my chance of survivalabilty! Now the other point how is it that other groups can sale items in the game and it is claimed that they have better items than game items? How is it that others have a million plats to spend for items in the auction house? The rumor is that you guys are in on it!!!! Also now that I have established that some one of importance is reading the forum the others that attack me did the get violation points or was it just me!!! To the rest of you if you attack me I will attack back in kind just like in real life and in the game you spit in my face I will spit back. I am not sorry for it ether just like in life I go wide open and I will do the same in game! I make my own path in life and in the game. live free or die is what I belive!!!!!

[Alcamez]

If your a true neutral Cleric lets say. OMG I dont have a deity. Will you be able to cast all three of these new damage dealing spells for clerics?

[dungeonrat07]

You bring up a good point! And if it were added to this game would greatly enhance it!! I hope you get you are seeking. I would like to know what god would you serve if that is not asking to much.

[Gimpster]

If your a true neutral Cleric lets say. OMG I dont have a deity. Will you be able to cast all three of these new damage dealing spells for clerics?
Yes you can. The only thing that can block you from casting them is being of an opposed alignment, and true neutral isn't opposed to anything.

[dungeonrat07]

There is now another group sending advertizements threw the mail wanting people to buy threw them. How can this be? Whats next dateing services, car loans, mortage financing, viagra ads. I hate salesmen because they can never accept when they are not wanted. Why cant turbine control this? It would be nice that when the mail icon appears that I can click on the icon and see were the mail came from also at the same time I could delete it without goneing to a mail box. The alternative is to ignore the mail all together. If turbine does nothing to stop it then all you guys are doing is lip service which is insulting and makes you guys lose creditabilty

[MysticTheurge]

Out of curiosity, what does that have to do with the topic of this thread?

[dungeonrat07]

Do you really need me to answer that? What part bothers you?

[Aesop]

I think the problem is that this thread is about SPells and Enhancments for 4.2 And not about enhancing the mail system to filter spam. You might have meant to post that in a different development thread. Like the WDA or something like it.


Aesop

[dungeonrat07]

You really belive that I need to hear that? I am going to try not to take it as an insult!! Why should it matter were I post it? Maybe it should accrue to you that maybe I have it book marked here!!

[Talias006]

No, I don't believe you needed to hear that. I think they were just saying that perhaps your comment would've been better warranted if it were listed in the WDA post where there might be a possibility of it making sense showing up in. Believe what you will, but this is a thread started by an employee of Turbine to discuss the issues of the new magic spells and character enhancements.

Dropping the Mail issue in here is actually very much like the problem you're experiencing with people sending you spam mail or messages that are off-topic to what you're interested in seeing.

And if I offended you in any way, I'm sorry.

Shall we get back to Spells and Enhancement concerns?

[dungeonrat07]

Ok. I will try to keep that in mind the next time I feel the need to post my comments. Since spells were brought up and i have greed for them how about Bigby's forceful hand, Mordenkainen's sword, and blink. Levitate would be nice as well. For rangers the water walk spell and maybe the feat track

[Alcamez]

Yes you can. The only thing that can block you from casting them is being of an opposed alignment, and true neutral isn't opposed to anything.

Thanks for the answer.

[dungeonrat07]

It would have been nice to hear from some one from turbine about the spells I was asking about in one of three ways, bless you, drop dead, or maybe but that did not happien. So now I feel this place is for craps and giggles big waste of time. SO I will slither back under my rock and in my hole and not come back again!!!

[axebender]

just wondering how others that play pally feel about this new holysword spell?
i find it may have its uses but really not worth meming, personally i would rather have deathward memd 9 out of 10 times. im not familiar with the D&D rules in eberron all that well but i was told that this spell should be able to work on any of your personal weapons and damage should stack also. if this is true why did turbin not implement the spell in this way? was it fear of overpowering the pally? well just wanted to know what others think of it.

[BrntVan]

These new spells aren't that great like you have to be lawful good to cast some of these cleric spells. But nightshield is very helpful it also stacks with regular Shield.:rolleyes:

[MysticTheurge]

you have to be lawful good to cast some of these cleric spells.

That's not true.

[Aspenor]

These new spells aren't that great like you have to be lawful good to cast some of these cleric spells. But nightshield is very helpful it also stacks with regular Shield.:rolleyes:

Well it really just eliminates the need for a resistance item....actually somewhat useful. My wizard will be finding a new cloak, or I will be getting the Dragon boots and putting on a cloak of the roc, giving me freedom of movement in addition to my +3 resistance from the nightshield spell.

[Talon_Moonshadow]

I think the problem is that this thread is about SPells and Enhancments for 4.2 And not about enhancing the mail system to filter spam. You might have meant to post that in a different development thread. Like the WDA or something like it.


Aesop

I thought it was kind of funny that a post about unwanted mail was posted where no one wanted to read it. :)

Ironic!

[Talon_Moonshadow]

Well it really just eliminates the need for a resistance item....actually somewhat useful. My wizard will be finding a new cloak, or I will be getting the Dragon boots and putting on a cloak of the roc, giving me freedom of movement in addition to my +3 resistance from the nightshield spell.

Yep. My wizard is now wearing that Cloak of Protection +5 I had in the bank.....no more need for the Co Resist +3 if I can cast it on myself. :)

(is 34AC nonbuffed on a Wizard good?)

[Drfirewater79]

Which may be a valid complaint, but has nothing to do with your initial assertion that the Devs haven't read anything but the PHB and the DMG. :rolleyes:

And seriously, cure critical potions? Maybe you should read the DMG.


Actually MT, That rule is in the Player's Handbook, in the description for the Brew Potion feat.


Well, it's in both places then, cause it's also in the DMG under the description of potions. ;)


Then I guess the guy who wanted Cure Critical potions should read better.

I own over 40 PnP books sorry if i cant quote them all at the same time and list page numbers like some of the bigger pnp geeks but the point is i can find more then 80% in just the basic books of the rules they are either not following or blaming on its a video game or could put in with little or no real animations or maybe even just a different colour on an animation that exists not like they havent done that before the whole potions thing wouldnt be so out of the ordinary in DDO where bending the rules to suit there needs is an everyday affair

guess what my real problem is that well not enough stuff comes in the updates to keep us from endless loot runs

there is no customization leading to a world filled with people that look identical now they merged the worlds so its just gonna make it worse

so maybe they need to pic up a complete arcane and make a major update for casters then how about opening up the complete adventure and toss us a monkey grip or the hundered plus feats and special abilites that only require a symbol and a die roll

in school i used to program in turing (and that is a old **** program now) and i remember it not being so hard to create a square icon that people can click on and add a line to a if and or then statement (all basic programing is based on these same commands just writtten differently in code) to grant a +1-4 ability or damage amplifier to what is already available

ok monkey grip might require a little more cause you might have to make a second notice program that determines if your able to weild the weapon in one hand based on the fact that you have the feat and deny others from doing it if they dont

the point is if we only see a major update once every 5 months then we will never get the game we should have had at launch before everyone leaves the game and it goes bankrupt and becomes the greatest game that never lived

we dont have servers like WOW with 15 million people you want to know why its cause there isnt enough to do

like em or not the PnP'ers are the reason this game got made

keep em happy all you have to do is try a little one race and one class a year is not enough and 10 slightly better because everything else sucks spells every couple months might make some happy who dont read the books but others sit here going damd i cant create the character i love from my PnP world cause there are no prestige classes or the spells i love to use or necromancers or evil alignment or warmages or druids or monks or cause multiclassing has been downtalked so much that somepeople wont even party with someone with 2 multi classes in there description (i admit i hate inviteing people with less then 13 levels of caster and something else unless they are clerics and looking for extra sp) either cause of damage out put or because they become mana leaches for clerics and casters just to level them off with everyone else (also explains why i mainly guild party)

all i really want is to see that they hear these kinds of things and eventually put out quarterly progections as to what they have planned why not send IGN some video of stuff you have planned for the main mods so we can look and see what work is being done to fix what or what spell animations are complete how about a seperate section with interviews and video of game updates for the future updates and what little stuff is complete or at least at the testing stage so we can start building the hype faster maybe if this had been done by now we wouldnt have had to merge servers.

ps

if we end up merging any smaller it means turbine/DDO is bankrupt


Yes I know they are from the players hand book but it is also in the Eberron book aswell and by the way I have both books. Yes you are right it is time for me to move on and find something elseto do! Thank you and have a good day


oh dont that suck when you get a book thrown in your face about something eh yeah i thought so



Can't we all just learn to get along? Now play nice. :)

I know Thaco and i am sorry

i think Thaco here has made a good point about forum edicate this is the Development discussion forums we should be sticking to the main topic leaving personal problems with other forum friends and j3rks and focus on the perpose of the forum

to slander Developers and throw our endless ideas as to how help them make more money from more people thus creating a larger gaming experience and thus raising turbines hand as the company to produce the best MMO available to date

but if we are so busy fighting with ourselves the devs dont read

they dont fix

and if fact usually screw things up

all cause we couldnt get along and find a compramise here on the forums

and no i am not really being sarcastic


Yep. My wizard is now wearing that Cloak of Protection +5 I had in the bank.....no more need for the Co Resist +3 if I can cast it on myself. :)

(is 34AC nonbuffed on a Wizard good?)


yeah that is pretty good i only got a 30 unbuffed with my +5 protection cloak on yadidnt but really now that i got a stormreavers napkin and a +2 int tome (scored yesterday on elite titan) i try to stay away from anything melee and focus on fire ice damage from afar and mind tricks to keep them away

i really want a warmage cause then you will see casters with decent ac become a more popular thing they get ability to (at higher levels) wear meduim armor with no spell faliure just hoping i can get a mythral full plate before warmages are available