Raids

[Belfalcon]

everyone is saying More simple raids well i would like to see biger and harder raids. i would like to see 3 -6 hr raids with more then 1 raid boss lets have something with like 6 raid bossis and every boss drops loot... stuff like that

[joracie]

That would be cool. I would also like to see larger parties. Not WoWs 40 but maybe 20. Call it army's :P how about a full fledged assault on a powerful hobgod fortress with catapults and everything! Maybe from our good friend in TR.

[Citymorg]

What I would like to see is multipart raids, like Tangleroot but with 12 people. Make it long and difficult, maybe add raid loot at the end of each one, but make it so we can take a larger party.

[Mizyrlou]

It's probably a me thing, but having been on the current raids with sometimes my being the only cleric, it's a handful enough trying to keep an eye on the current 12. I'd probably have a breakdown trying to keep an eye on 20.

[bobbryan2]

The biggest suggestion I have for raids is this:

Stop making it so you want to complete a quest with the smallest amount of people. You really want a raid loot system that doesn't favor people that duo, trio, or even solo a raid. None of the other quests in DDO are like that. Soloing Invaders doesn't net you any kind of advantage, it's just bragging rights. Soloing raids should be like that too.

I just don't like a loot system that punishes groups who let non-optimal people into the group.

I've taken to 2-3 manning all the raids, just because it's the only way to have a decent shot at getting an end reward. Otherwise, I think I would puke having to run VON 1-4 again for no reason.

Just my opinion.

[Shecky]

I'm not sure this is the right direction for this game as it stands. If we had oodles of people, sure. If we had lots of people who could coordinate and afford to spend that much time on one thing, absolutely. But I don't have the impression that we really have that many people in a position to do those things.

Perhaps more 12-man quests; that's something I wouldn't mind seeing. But for any outside the superlarge guilds, even guaranteeing enough quality players to have a fully-manned 12-person group can be a really tall order, and it would be even tougher for a 20+ group.

Not against the idea per se, just not certain that it could work in the current state of DDO, that's all.

[ccheath776]

That would be cool. I would also like to see larger parties. Not WoWs 40 but maybe 20. Call it army's :P how about a full fledged assault on a powerful hobgod fortress with catapults and everything! Maybe from our good friend in TR.

Yu can do this in LOTRO. Shouldn't be a problem to add it here. I always said they need more castles conquests than outdoor adventure complete option a then b.

[Boulderun]

I vehemently oppose any moves in the direction of WoW's godawful raids, especially when the ones we have need so much work - namely the removal of excessive prereq repetition, and fixing the loot mechanic so that stops discouraging 12 man groups (as noted above).

[Tyrande]

I have to say that I must disagree with the proposal. It is hard enough for healers to take care of 12 people along with keys F1 through F12; there are no keys F13 through F20. How is the only cleric or multiple clerics going to take care of larger groups?

3 clerics: 1) F1 through F8
2) F9 through ctrl-F1 through ctrl-F4
3) ctrl-F5 through ctrl-F12
?

Healing people is going to be a challenge in such large groups. Good idea for melee people who never play casters. Big challenge for casters (both arcane and divine) to call out targets.

[Boulderun]

That's a good point. Excessively large parties will force healers into the WoW-priest's role as nothing but a spreadsheet manager, clicking on health bars without even being able to see what's going on.

[Tyrande]

Oh yeah, they have to fix the raid loot mechanics. Make the raid loot works like scales, you participated in the raid, you get 1/12 of the raid loot regardless of your /roll.

[Belfalcon]

I have to say that I must disagree with the proposal. It is hard enough for healers to take care of 12 people along with keys F1 through F12; there are no keys F13 through F20. How is the only cleric or multiple clerics going to take care of larger groups?

3 clerics: 1) F1 through F8
2) F9 through ctrl-F1 through ctrl-F4
3) ctrl-F5 through ctrl-F12
?

Healing people is going to be a challenge in such large groups. Good idea for melee people who never play casters. Big challenge for casters (both arcane and divine) to call out targets.
i play a cleric and i would love to see 20 man raids but i would have 3 clerics go

[ccheath776]

Yu can do this in LOTRO. Shouldn't be a problem to add it here. I always said they need more castles conquests than outdoor adventure complete option a then b.

In a way you could consider the black anvil mines a sort of "Raid the castle" albeit its underground.

[akla_thornfist]

change the raid loot is what i suggest, make it so 12 man raid is the norm. most people hate the raids because of the loot mechanic. make it static drops like they have it now in deleras and tangleroot, more people would be willing to raid if they had a better chance for decent loot.

[ebt-dnd]

Gee, 6 hour raid runs for no loot. That's why I quit WoW. I believe that's why WoW also cut down the raid requirements in their new update.

[Zenix_Leviticus]

Oh yeah, they have to fix the raid loot mechanics. Make the raid loot works like scales, you participated in the raid, you get 1/12 of the raid loot regardless of your /roll.

I really like this idea!!

[Mercules]

Gee, 6 hour raid runs for no loot. That's why I quit WoW. I believe that's why WoW also cut down the raid requirements in their new update.

Yeah... I hate the "raids" in most other MMOs and the raid mechanics here. The uber loot that only 2 people get really puts a damper on running and the hoops you have to jump through to get there are annoying for most of them.

My normal thought is, "Why would I re-run VoN1-6 10 times hoping and praying that something I -might- want comes up and I am lucky enough to be with a group that is honest and/or roll well enough.?" So I don't bother much beyond "experiencing" the Raid. The other day was my first time in the Titan raid. The quest itself was enjoyable but the loot at the end... whoopy. Not repeating that for a small chance at a somewhat usable item.

[Gimpster]

everyone is saying More simple raids well i would like to see biger and harder raids. i would like to see 3 -6 hr raids with more then 1
Raids should never go for more than 2 hours at one sitting. That's how long Twilight Forge can take with a moderately inexperienced group, and that's really pushing it in terms of scheduling and attention span.

After seeing the negative reaction to Twilight Forge in module 2 they overreacted and made the new raids 10-20 minutes each, which is acceptable sometime, but too short in general. It's a good thing you don't need many players to beat the Laliat or Stormreaver raid, because it simply isn't worth scheduling a big group together for a 12 minute quest. Going forward they should make more raids in the 60-90 minute range.

[Dragonhyde]

Personally I would like more stand alone raids with no "raid" loot but instead named items that can drop in the end chest and for higher level raids the possibility of plus 2 tomes to drop only in the end chest.:D

[Hence]

I would not like to see raid groups get any larger then twelve.
But I agree that people should be rewarded for bringing twelve people instead of being rewarded for bringing fewer people.

Allow people to choose from the end rewards a "scale" type item. Lets say, 20 of these new "scales" and you get to choose from a static raid loot list. (ie, Red Dragon Scale = Velah, Demon Scale = DQ, Titanium Chunk = Titan, Lock of Reaver Hair = Reaver.)

You can also limit this to only one item... make it a quest like the dragon scales are, and only able to complete once per character. So eventually, after 20 raids, you will get an item. Not to mention the items you may win in the raid itself.

Also, I like the idea of having a multi-boss raid encounter, I love how the GH Pre-raid works, where the dragons are optional. We need more of this time of mechanic for raid bosses.

[Frodo_Lives]

With the new implementation of being able to trade stuff right out of the chest loot binding is no longer an issue. If something shows up with your name on it and you can't use it, don't pull it from the chest give it to someone who can/will use it.

Take out the human component of deciding who gets what, and give out raid loot to one out of every 3 people who participate in the raid. If someone wants to 3 man the raid, one piece drops, 6 man the raid 2 drop, take all 12 then have 4 pieces drop. If you think that's too much then do it for one out of 4. Whatever, just fix the loot mechanic so that it does not punish people for taking a full party on a raid.

I don't raid simply because as an unguilded player it's not worth the time and effort to PuG a raid and possibly get ripped off when it comes time to roll. It happens, in different forms and in different ways, but it happens. People have been told that they can't roll on something period, or that they have a lesser shot at something because of a point system. Or John gets the high roll and gives the token to Jim his guildmate and the PuG player gets screwed.

I'd hate to see 6 hour raids, by the time they get organized and on thier way it would turn into an 8 hour affair. I don't know about most people but I sure as heck don't have 8 hour blocks of time to play this game very often at all.

More raids like TS with raid loot as named items with +2 tomes out of the end chest would be good, and fix it so that you don't have to do the pre reqs on the existing raids over and over every time you want a shot at doing a raid.

[Netminder69]

6-8 hours raids just wouldn't work. period. Heck, sometimes it's hard enoug has it is to run through the Necropolis or Greymoon Co6 without having LFM because people drop partway through. If something comes up it can be understandable. I have played at work before on slow days and sometimes a priority ticket comes in that HAVE to take so I have to drop a group. Then again, when at work I try to run shorter quests. And I have seen people have to drop because their wife is standing over them with a rolling pin. I've been there too. Soem people though just up and drop or they go through one part then say "Thanks, time for bed." Huh? You knew this was a long quest series. In a 6-8 hour raid, it would be just as bad. It can never happen. 4 hour quest lengths are bad enough to try to complete.

Perhaps a solution would be to change the raid loot tables so everyone participating would receive an item that fits with whatever their highest class is (fighters are more likely to get armor, weapons, or physical stat tomes, prime stat items, etc., Clerics would bemore likely to get clickie items, items that boost prime stats, items that boost spell castign ability, etc.). Then you either a) can only go on that raid once ever with that character (this would cut down on the proliferation of the once unique items, but would probably make it hard for people to find a group for the raids since the population of who is eligible would be low at times), or b) have a longer time period in between when you can run the raid again. Say once every couple months.

Despite people's annoyance with the prereq quests to run a raid, people seem to not mind doing them since they run these raids over and over and over again. Especially seeing build posts that are made around having these high end items. Personally, if you want the uber loot, you should have to jump through hoops for it.

Maybe I'm just a cynic and look at D&D more in the PnP light where you covet that really nice item you manage to find in game, instead of the video game mentality where it becomes a race to see how much loot you can rack up.

[Belfalcon]

i like how 3-6 hr raids go to 8 hr raids lol anyhow the longest i have raided in 1 siting is 18 hers but that was world of warcraft but a good 3 to 5 hr raid with more then 1 raid boss in the zone
and if your only in the raid for the loot then 10 mins runs with a new loot tabel may work for you but i realy dont think it is the loot tabel that is the problem way only have 1 boss in the raid.... oh well

6-8 hours raids just wouldn't work. period. Heck, sometimes it's hard enoug has it is to run through the Necropolis or Greymoon Co6 without having LFM because people drop partway through. If something comes up it can be understandable. I have played at work before on slow days and sometimes a priority ticket comes in that HAVE to take so I have to drop a group. Then again, when at work I try to run shorter quests. And I have seen people have to drop because their wife is standing over them with a rolling pin. I've been there too. Soem people though just up and drop or they go through one part then say "Thanks, time for bed." Huh? You knew this was a long quest series. In a 6-8 hour raid, it would be just as bad. It can never happen. 4 hour quest lengths are bad enough to try to complete.

Perhaps a solution would be to change the raid loot tables so everyone participating would receive an item that fits with whatever their highest class is (fighters are more likely to get armor, weapons, or physical stat tomes, prime stat items, etc., Clerics would bemore likely to get clickie items, items that boost prime stats, items that boost spell castign ability, etc.). Then you either a) can only go on that raid once ever with that character (this would cut down on the proliferation of the once unique items, but would probably make it hard for people to find a group for the raids since the population of who is eligible would be low at times), or b) have a longer time period in between when you can run the raid again. Say once every couple months.

Despite people's annoyance with the prereq quests to run a raid, people seem to not mind doing them since they run these raids over and over and over again. Especially seeing build posts that are made around having these high end items. Personally, if you want the uber loot, you should have to jump through hoops for it.

Maybe I'm just a cynic and look at D&D more in the PnP light where you covet that really nice item you manage to find in game, instead of the video game mentality where it becomes a race to see how much loot you can rack up.

[Mercules]

i like how 3-6 hr raids go to 8 hr raids lol anyhow the longest i have raided in 1 siting is 18 hers but that was world of warcraft but a good 3 to 5 hr raid with more then 1 raid boss in the zone
and if your only in the raid for the loot then 10 mins runs with a new loot tabel may work for you but i realy dont think it is the loot tabel that is the problem way only have 1 boss in the raid.... oh well

Well... there is always WoW where you don't have to petition for the raids to be changed. :D

[slordaxjay]

My sisters idea is to have a setting for most quests that go beyond elite level. Call it raid level and allow a 12 man raid party. I know in my guild we usually are running 2 parties at peek times, unless by some miracle we get every body flagged for a raid. We love to play together but find it hard to get every body ready for those raids. Plus the fact that only two people will end up with any good reward for the raid almost makes all the effort for the raids pointless. Now, if after elite we could run a raid on most of the other quests we would be raiding all the time :) I'm not saying better loot and or experience, I'm just saying double the monsters but keep same loot and experience as elite.

[Clorkan]

It's probably a me thing, but having been on the current raids with sometimes my being the only cleric, it's a handful enough trying to keep an eye on the current 12. I'd probably have a breakdown trying to keep an eye on 20.


Been there and done that from both sides, with my cleric and having Mizyrlou save my backside. So I say a big AMEN

[ccheath776]

I really like this idea!!

I dont like it. It makes you run the same quest too many times.

[Lcdr_Swizzle]

One way to discourage 2 or 3 man party's doing the raids, is to change the way the "shards" (or whatever they are) are given out, and adapt the number of warded items to the same number.
Give out a number of shards / warded items based on number of people that are in the party when the quest finishes. For example, have Von 6 drop 1 shard for every 2 people in the quest. So if you 2-man it, you get one shard. If you 12-man it, you get 6.
Now, before you go crazy saying that 6 is too much to give, remember that many items will still be useless, because the player that gets them will just sell them, because the character either can't use it, AND the character can't trade it. We don't get much money for selling a 72k gp item, so what's the big deal?
If you want, nerf the other chest to make up for it, but not so much that people won't want to do the dragon run anymore.

[JayDubya]

They should get rid of the glyphs altogether, and go with a dragon/elf/giant relic approach. Everyone gets a few relics from the final chest, and they turn those in to a vendor when they have 12 or 20 or so, and that gives them a few choices from the existing end-reward set.

a) It ensures you'll get something eventually
b) It increases the willingness to take larger, potentially less experienced parties along (because you don't get fewer relics)
c) It avoids all the drama
d) They already have the code in place, so it's not like it would be hard to implement.



Note: These would be new kinds of relics - Kundarak, Titan and Demon relics

[narizue]

I love the binding token approach. I think that it is very fair and reasonable. I know that the current raid loot mechanic is one of the biggest reasons that I do not raid much anymore outside of guild groups.

[Arjen]

The biggest suggestion I have for raids is this:

Stop making it so you want to complete a quest with the smallest amount of people. You really want a raid loot system that doesn't favor people that duo, trio, or even solo a raid. None of the other quests in DDO are like that. Soloing Invaders doesn't net you any kind of advantage, it's just bragging rights. Soloing raids should be like that too.


Well said.

If some alternate method of reward could be generated then it would encourage group/pickup play. As it currently stands I never, ever PUG any of the raids as I'm the GM of a large guild that has a nice point system in place. Why would I burn my raid timer when it's probably not going to do me much good (for myself or guildmates)? If a token system could be devised, then clerics who ran the dragon 40 times only to lose the roll on the hat might be able to find some reason to raid again.

Something, anything would be better than it is now. I railed against the loot system when the Velah raid was announced and I still don't like it today.


EDIT: As far as 6-8 hour raids go... no thanks. I left WoW for a reason and I would hate to see that sort of thing come to DDO. Most of us have lives, please let us continue to live them AND get to play DDO.

[Eradacator]

Honestly I like the concept that is put into play currently for raids....what fun/satisfaction would we all get if we could all walk into VON 5 for example and 12 people come out with dragon swords or +5 Mithril chain shirts????? Or Go into the stormreaver and everyone walk out with +3 tomes? Yay!!!.....No...... If that was the case...first off everyone would become cookie cutter which totally takes the fun out of the game for me....and not to mention certain items that drop from non raids would be obeslete and that would wreck the market some..
(Example: if everyone was looting a +5 Mith chain shirt from the dragon, then the ones looted in normal dungeons would loose their value signifgantly because you would be pretty much handed one)

And Honestly I am not too fond to hit another "easy mode" switch in this game. If anything I request from the devs to please make some more raids titan-esque I go on raids for a few reasons...

1. Because I like getting together with a group of all my friends, having fun with them, and feel a sense of accomplishment. Yeah I felt that the first few times with the Stormreaver,(which btw I love the puzzle part!!) but after the 20th time it's just kinda like "Oh, wow, we did it again".. With the titan and dragon I still feel excited every time we take them down. Even know the run gets easier and easier every time there is still that sense of work put in to getting there...and not just walking into a room and beating on something =)

2. Because, like 99.9% of you who run these raids, I want loot!!!! lol, some raids have some very nice items for my builds and I want them. And a +2 or +3 tome never hurt either ;)

3. And finally, going along with number 1 and pretty much this entire post. When putting in this work, I like that chance to be set apart from the crowd and have something nice that I worked to get, and YES I rolled high to get as well.

Raids are intentionally designed this way to give you a large risk for a large reward. If you want the item bad enough get a group together and go get it.....If it bothers you that bad that you wont be guarenteed an item...then possibly suggest a different method of distributing the loot items, (for example in my guild if someone wins an item, next raid whoever that person rolls against gets double rolls) Honestly though I think you have a much better chance rolling against 6 people for one item then you do farming some dungeons for named items :D

[barecm]

I'm not sure this is the right direction for this game as it stands. If we had oodles of people, sure. If we had lots of people who could coordinate and afford to spend that much time on one thing, absolutely. But I don't have the impression that we really have that many people in a position to do those things.

Perhaps more 12-man quests; that's something I wouldn't mind seeing. But for any outside the superlarge guilds, even guaranteeing enough quality players to have a fully-manned 12-person group can be a really tall order, and it would be even tougher for a 20+ group.

Not against the idea per se, just not certain that it could work in the current state of DDO, that's all.

Agree 100%. Even the larger guilds would have problems staffing a 12-20+ person raid consistently. Pugging would be futile.

[Viragon]

I just thought i would chime in on a different way to decide who gets loot in a Raid. This is a system I was introduced to by another guild and along with the leader of my guild have used in all of the raids we run. not every one in our guild likes this system but i personaly think it is fair and not only that but gives you a higher chance of getting loot. we call the system picking loot. every person on the raid picks one item that they want from the raid. Any one item including specific tomes. When the raid is done and the loot revealed if your item droped you just take that item. In the cases where more than one person picks the same item those people roll for that item. in the case where no one picked any of the items that droped every one gets a roll. After using this system in my raids over the last few weeks i can generally say that I am more excited to see a chest opened. will it be my loot will it be some one elses or will it be a booby prize. most of the people in the guild like this system because it gives each individual a bettder chance to not only get loot but to get the loot that they want. even if you have to roll on what you picked its only against one or two people in stead of 12. The biggest complaint ive gotten is that it ruins the fun of rolling and it ruins the surprize. Chests are random anyway and i never had much fun rolling against 12 people. winning yes rolling no. I would like to see what others think about this system?

[Riot]

Even the larger guilds would have problems staffing a 12-20+ person raid consistently.

Not... we'd do just fine.

Make the raid good and people will line up to go.

For the record we use the PLS system for loot.
(Positive Loot Score) system.

[Zenix_Leviticus]

I dont like it. It makes you run the same quest too many times.

Our guild has run the dragon (velah) over 40 times and we just had the helm
drop 1 week ago. I am talking about 40 all guild runs and with 2 belts and 1
helm dropping in all of those raids.

If you could take items that you collected from these raids and trade them
in for a piece of the loot that you could actually use, it would be less runs
in the long run.


.......But......

If you did it this way, it would be as easy as run the dragon x times to get your helm then
y times to get your armor. Eventually this would turn out to everyone having the same
gear at high levels.

All I know is that I don't like the glyphs.

[bobbryan2]

Our guild has run the dragon (velah) over 40 times and we just had the helm
drop 1 week ago. I am talking about 40 all guild runs and with 2 belts and 1
helm dropping in all of those raids.

If you could take items that you collected from these raids and trade them
in for a piece of the loot that you could actually use, it would be less runs
in the long run.


.......But......

If you did it this way, it would be as easy as run the dragon x times to get your helm then
y times to get your armor. Eventually this would turn out to everyone having the same
gear at high levels.

All I know is that I don't like the glyphs.

Yep... best way to do it... would be to have a random list of 3 items pop when you turn in your 6 tokens. Nothing good pops for you? Get 6 more.

[Jaysensen]

There are two problems, that I see with current raids.

Loot mechanics suck.
Raids arent challenging at all on normal, and arent worth running on elite for loot.

I think Ridd or someone else mentioned the concept of multiple items. One idea would be to increase the number of drops to 4 on Hard and 6 on Elite, with ONLY TWO Wards. Or not.

Any number of suggestions of loot mechanics are 10x better than what we have now. The point is that there are any number of solutions to make Raids more challenging and more rewarding (both in fun and loot) at the same time.

[Shecky]

Not... we'd do just fine.

Make the raid good and people will line up to go.

For the record we use the PLS system for loot.
(Positive Loot Score) system.

And there are always exceptions to the rule - while there are a few high-population guilds that wouldn't have trouble finding 12-20 active players ready to go at any given time (or easily assemblable), I honestly don't think they're the norm. The important thing to remember is that Turbine would be best served by designing to the largest segment of the population - the in-between.

Although, come to think of it... I have to wonder what IS the average guild size out there. I mean active players, not total roster.

[JD2134]

everyone is saying More simple raids well i would like to see biger and harder raids. i would like to see 3 -6 hr raids with more then 1 raid boss lets have something with like 6 raid bossis and every boss drops loot... stuff like that

Well you could simple make a plan to Do your own self big raid. By completing tempest spine,then the dragon raid then going on and doing the titan raid, followed by the demon queen raid, then the reaver,

So at the end of the night you have all four quest timers going

[Gimpster]

Honestly I like the concept that is put into play currently for raids....what fun/satisfaction would we all get if we could all walk into VON 5 for example and 12 people come out with dragon swords or +5 Mithril chain shirts?????
FYI, in VON6 you can get a named +6 mithral chain shirt. It has superior AC to any +5 mithral armor you might find randomly generated.

[Eradacator]

Yeah Sorry, was just making a point, it is a nice shirt ;)

[Elfvyra]

FYI, in VON6 you can get a named +6 mithral chain shirt. It has superior AC to any +5 mithral armor you might find randomly generated.


Try +5, not +6...

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v294/CJGMURPG/DDOitems/KundarakDelvingSuit.jpg

[bobbryan2]

Try +5, not +6...

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v294/CJGMURPG/DDOitems/KundarakDelvingSuit.jpg

It's +5 Chainmail with the dex bonus of a chain shirt. So it has the same AC as a +6 Mithral Chainshirt. That's what he's alluding to.

And... it has the same AC as +5 Mithral Full Plate... so it's not inherently 'better' than ANY mithral armor you could find. It's just different.

[apollojuly]

I've played since head start and have capped two characters. I think I have done 3 dragon raids and one stormreaver raid. Just not my thing.

I have however done TS about a zillion times. I'd like more "raids" similar to that one.

[DrAwkward]

The biggest suggestion I have for raids is this:

Stop making it so you want to complete a quest with the smallest amount of people. You really want a raid loot system that doesn't favor people that duo, trio, or even solo a raid. None of the other quests in DDO are like that. Soloing Invaders doesn't net you any kind of advantage, it's just bragging rights. Soloing raids should be like that too.

Good point. My only concern is folks that could normally duo these quests will still duo them, but bring in 10 farming toons to reap 6 times the reward that they were getting otherwise. Not sure how to get around that.

[bobbryan2]

Good point. My only concern is folks that could normally duo these quests will still duo them, but bring in 10 farming toons to reap 6 times the reward that they were getting otherwise. Not sure how to get around that.

Heh... sounds like a lot of pugs I know. :D Except change farming toons to completely incompetant toons.

And at least that way... the people that can duo it (AND have 10 extra accounts) get a bonus, BUT everybody else isn't getting penalized. Which is the more important thing.

And really... who has 10 accounts?