Charmed Monsters...Annoying? Or a Great Boon?

[Draclaud]

I was in Madstone Elite last night, and found myself being more and more annoyed by the Sorceror constantly casting charm. I don't intend to tell people how to play their characters, that would be rude. I won't ask someone to leave based on their playstyle, that's rude too. But I admit I added the guy on my "do not group with again list". I understand charmed mobs have their place, and can be very helpful...when soloing. In a full well powered party it just annoys the heck out of me when the charms break behind the caster and start smacking the cleric...said sorc...waiting for the charm to wear off so we can take it out...and retracking through previously "cleared" areas only to get hammered by a stay monster that was charmed and got left behind. Am I just not "getting it" or should charms ONLY be used in severely underpowered groups and while soloing?

[EinarMal]

I was in Madstone Elite last night, and found myself being more and more annoyed by the Sorceror constantly casting charm. I don't intend to tell people how to play their characters, that would be rude. I won't ask someone to leave based on their playstyle, that's rude too. But I admit I added the guy on my "do not group with again list". I understand charmed mobs have their place, and can be very helpful...when soloing. In a full well powered party it just annoys the heck out of me when the charms break behind the caster and start smacking the cleric...said sorc...waiting for the charm to wear off so we can take it out...and retracking through previously "cleared" areas only to get hammered by a stay monster that was charmed and got left behind. Am I just not "getting it" or should charms ONLY be used in severely underpowered groups and while soloing?

Both! In groups that are rolling through everything charm can be annoying, this is true through all the levels. In groups that are taking a lot of damage and using a ton of resources charm can be a huge benefit.

Did you mention to the guy/gal to maybe go a little lighter with the charm since the group was rolling through things? Maybe they just did not know that others found it annoying.

[Draclaud]

Both! In groups that are rolling through everything charm can be annoying, this is true through all the levels. In groups that are taking a lot of damage and using a ton of resources charm can be a huge benefit.

Did you mention to the guy/gal to maybe go a little lighter with the charm since the group was rolling through things? Maybe they just did not know that others found it annoying.

Kind of passive aggressively to tell ya the truth. "Gee any idea how long that charm is gonna last? we have to kill this guy..." "We can just mow through these guys no need to waste your sp on that symbol of persuasion..."(as seven new pink hats show up 5 seconds later...

[EinarMal]

Kind of passive aggressively to tell ya the truth. "Gee any idea how long that charm is gonna last? we have to kill this guy..." "We can just mow through these guys no need to waste your sp on that symbol of persuasion..."(as seven new pink hats show up 5 seconds later...

Yeah those are the sort of things I would say as well. I don't like people telling me how to play so I try not to either. Maybe send a tell or something instead that is more direct if it is a huge problem? I've been in a couple of groups like this and said basically what you did, in once case they eased off and in the other endless pink hats.

[CSFurious]

are the charms useful? are they appropriate?

does caster have any idea of when his charm is going to wear off?

basically, if you are a charmer, you have to be prepared for the "whuppin'" that might come when the charms wear off

i would judge the player & let him play if he seems to understand how to play as an army can be quite helpful

i know that i am going to take some flack for creating undead with my sor, but i also have good heightened halt undead, firewall, and control undead to stop them if they break free from my control

i think what you are doing is right, i.e., do not group with him again, every good player has a list like that, and i am sure that i am on some lists as well

P.S. i have determined that the undead spells are worthless & am going to take some "charm" spells for end-game content

[arcane_nite]

I was in Madstone Elite last night, and found myself being more and more annoyed by the Sorceror constantly casting charm. I don't intend to tell people how to play their characters, that would be rude. I won't ask someone to leave based on their playstyle, that's rude too. But I admit I added the guy on my "do not group with again list". I understand charmed mobs have their place, and can be very helpful...when soloing. In a full well powered party it just annoys the heck out of me when the charms break behind the caster and start smacking the cleric...said sorc...waiting for the charm to wear off so we can take it out...and retracking through previously "cleared" areas only to get hammered by a stay monster that was charmed and got left behind. Am I just not "getting it" or should charms ONLY be used in severely underpowered groups and while soloing?

I run 2 casters and it still annoys the SHEET out of me. I try to only charm in dire circumstances or when soloing/loot running. What is really annoying is when u are trying to pk, finger, or hold and the other caster casts charm. Which basically wastes your spell. Also, as you stated, in the end you still for the most part are going to have to kill the monster eventually. Had a guy while running POP charm everything, we get to the door at the top and guess what? We still have to kill all 7-10 charmed mobs as we will be coming right back that way. Why not just kill them on the way up? When I play my melees I will just let the charmed monster attack the caster when it "pops". If you cant control it, then dont charm it.

[Celebrochan]

Casters that charm should have dispel magic handy. You charm six mobs then when all the uncharmed mobs are dead you dispel one of the charms. 5 kills 1. *Dispel* 4 kills 1 *Dispel* 3 kills 1 etc.

[Missing_Minds]

Charming monsters has its place. I have seen and I have created armies of charmed monsters. These come in very handy IF used right by the ENTIRE group.

OP, I've no problem with you blacklisting that player if his/her playstyle was annoying you. I'd do the same thing. I also give you kudo's for not telling the person how to play their character. It is freaking bloody annoying to be asked for haste constantly. However, you also probably didn't realize how to use the charmed monsters to your advantage either. I haven't seen any guides nor have I looked for any, so in case it happens again, you'll have a better idea how to use it to your advantage.

Charmed mobs are a mixed blessing. If done one at a time they are very self policing, hence why I love "Charm Monster" I dislike Mass Charms for one reason. When they break, they ALL break. I use a mass charm as a last resort honestly. I also NEVER heal a charmed nor buff it if at all possible.

When meleeing with charmed monsters, never walk in first. Get the monsters and their keeper to go in first. You also do NOT, I repeat, do NOT follow in 3 seconds later. (the keeper also has to realize they need to get to safety as well.) I don't care how much it may go against your creed to "kill all insight right this instant" Hold back. You do not take damage, the charmed do. Your healer will love you more for not taking damage. Let the charmed either die first, or take lots of the agro in their first before you wade in. (I average about watching the show for 20 odd seconds before I get overly bored, then go in and pick and choose my own targets at leisure.) Yes, it may slow you down a bit, but will also keep you alive longer. And it is more exciting than waiting for Cloud Kill to take out mobs.

I also don't bother with charming if it is a case of the room needs to be cleared out before the door unlocks.

[sirgog]

I'm a big fan of Charm spells, if only for the fact my (then) Sor3 was able to solo Irestone Inlet on hard with them. Single monster charms are IMO the best value CC spells around. Mass charms - well, you want them to hit 40% of the mobs in a room. Any more, and you'll have troubles when they break.

The biggest problem, IMO, when charming, is when tanks zerg in and kill the other mobs in the room before the charmed mobs die.

[Dariun]

Casters that charm should have dispel magic handy.

This is the correct answer.

I play an enchantment focused wizard, and using charm monster and suggestion together can be a really powerful combination.

Sure, they can wear off at an inconvenient moment, but the advantages of converting a players v. 8 monsters situation into a players and 3 monsters v. 5 monsters situation far outweigh that.

But, yeah, bring along a dispel magic wand to avoid having to stand around waiting for some dumb hill giant to make a save.

[Katrina]

Watch your targets please. Try not to charm Monsters that have been curse or enervated to the n-th degree and thus have next to no save (common sense you might think but you'd be supprised ;))

[Draclaud]

The biggest problem, IMO, when charming, is when tanks zerg in and kill the other mobs in the room before the charmed mobs die.

Ok call me a zerger then, because it’ll take the charmed guys 5 mins to execute a 30 second fight. I guess it's my fault if I don't want a 30 minute quest to take an hour...

I play a Sorc as well, and I use no charm spells I CC fairly effectively alternating between S2F, Hold Monster, and hypno. 1,2,3 while the cooldowns are happening. Same neutralization of mobs without the added sit around and watch the trolls regenerate and fight for 30 mins...

[Draclaud]

[QUOTE=Missing Minds;1183210]Yes, it may slow you down a bit, but will also keep you alive longer. And it is more exciting than waiting for Cloud Kill to take out mobs.QUOTE]

The CK was quicker...BUT My point was in an adequately equiped group it's not nessiacary. Sure if you'r in a group of level 10's doing the Hobgoblin lair on leet then charm your tail off...

[Missing_Minds]

I play a Sorc as well, and I use no charm spells I CC fairly effectively alternating between S2F, Hold Monster, and hypno. 1,2,3 while the cooldowns are happening. Same neutralization of mobs without the added sit around and watch the trolls regenerate and fight for 30 mins...

Your pattern is not the same neutralization. 1 charm removes 2 from the immediate agro threat unlike single stoning and holding. How often do you even bother with hypno and two hander fighters that zerg? Now if you've got a smart pug or guild that will actually kill one at a time, wonderful! I just hardly ever see such happening.

As for the troll regeneration, its amazing what happens when you hold the non pet. Granted as soon as that hold goes up, fighters see the blue sparkley and want to kill it. Wonder why... *chuckles*

[cpito]

I so have to chime in after the nightmare Sorc I ran with last night. We were running one of the side quests in Gianthold (the hobgoblins- elite) and had entered the quest when we realised one member was not with us so I left the instance to wait for him while the others started the quest. Upon reentering with the last person, we came accross a group of charmed mobs fighting one of thier own and completely blocking the passage through. Don'tchya know, they all popped and we were two against about 15 and calling for help. It was almost a party wipe. She charmed one of the main guys and we had to sit and wait for him to save (which she claimed that in all the times she's soloed the quest that never happened). When we tried to get her to stop because they kept popping behind us, she got all huffy "I solo this all the time". We tried pointing out she wasn't soloing the quest and she left. Amazingly, we got a different caster and the second half of the quest took about 1/3 the time the first half did.

Now, don't get me wrong, charmed monsters have thier place and can be very useful as long as it fits in w/ what the group is doing. What you do solo is none of my business :eek:

[Missing_Minds]

The CK was quicker...BUT My point was in an adequately equiped group it's not nessiacary. Sure if you'r in a group of level 10's doing the Hobgoblin lair on leet then charm your tail off...

oooohh... the schematics I could get into with that one word. "Adequately". Dice are the bane of any adequatly equipped group regardless. The schematic aside, I am inclined to agree with you.

And typically I do have fun charming away in gianthold, whisperdoom, or what have you. An arcane with command undead can solo guarding the gate in "from beyond the grave" (I hope I didn't the name mixed up with "and the dead shall rise.") I also have a lot of fun with finger of death against casters. :)

[Raithe]

Charms are not supposed to work the way they do, an enemy isn't supposed to start pounding on his former ally. The way they do work is extremely overpowered.

Anyone running Madstone without using charms is just wasting resources. I have no idea what the OP's real problem was, but charming wasn't it. The amount of damage reduced from the giant skellies because 2 or 3 trolls have got their aggro is a healer's dream. It doesn't slow things down, either, it speeds it up dramatically.

Like Missing Minds, I prefer charm monster over the mass spells because it lasts longer and targetting can be better controlled. Other than that, I'll take whatever charms can be economically laid out in that particular quest.

They save everyone a ton of damage and grief.

[wemery73]

i say 50/50 but dont get carryed away and charm tons of mobs

[Crabo]

Charming monsters has its place. I have seen and I have created armies of charmed monsters. These come in very handy IF used right by the ENTIRE group.

OP, I've no problem with you blacklisting that player if his/her playstyle was annoying you. I'd do the same thing. I also give you kudo's for not telling the person how to play their character. It is freaking bloody annoying to be asked for haste constantly. However, you also probably didn't realize how to use the charmed monsters to your advantage either. I haven't seen any guides nor have I looked for any, so in case it happens again, you'll have a better idea how to use it to your advantage.

Charmed mobs are a mixed blessing. If done one at a time they are very self policing, hence why I love "Charm Monster" I dislike Mass Charms for one reason. When they break, they ALL break. I use a mass charm as a last resort honestly. I also NEVER heal a charmed nor buff it if at all possible.

When meleeing with charmed monsters, never walk in first. Get the monsters and their keeper to go in first. You also do NOT, I repeat, do NOT follow in 3 seconds later. (the keeper also has to realize they need to get to safety as well.) I don't care how much it may go against your creed to "kill all insight right this instant" Hold back. You do not take damage, the charmed do. Your healer will love you more for not taking damage. Let the charmed either die first, or take lots of the agro in their first before you wade in. (I average about watching the show for 20 odd seconds before I get overly bored, then go in and pick and choose my own targets at leisure.) Yes, it may slow you down a bit, but will also keep you alive longer. And it is more exciting than waiting for Cloud Kill to take out mobs.

I also don't bother with charming if it is a case of the room needs to be cleared out before the door unlocks.

So you give this guy kudos for not telling people how to play their character, then proceed to tell the melee guys EXACTLY how they should play their character when they get one of these time wasting charmers in their group.
Heres a tip for you, why dont you keep the melees hasted ...they would have no reason to ask for haste. Oh...you probably need those sp for charms eh?
If a sorc wastes a spell slot on charm, thats his own problem.

To the op...i haven't seen charm used effectively ever, and have played the game since near the beginning. Charm should be removed from the game along with sacred and deception, they are all as useful as each other. If people say it helps a weak group, well i have never been in a weak group.

[Craigthegreat]

Like pretty much everything else in this game, charm is best used as a situational spell. All the right circumstances it can be a great boost to dps, or an excellent way to cc. However, like many other spells if used incorrectly, or relied upon too heavily, you'll have issues. Just my 2cp

[Crabo]

An arcane with command undead can solo guarding the gate in "from beyond the grave"

So can an arcane without command undead , without any problems at all.

[Raithe]

To the op...i haven't seen charm used effectively ever, and have played the game since near the beginning. Charm should be removed from the game along with sacred and deception, they are all as useful as each other. If people say it helps a weak group, well i have never been in a weak group.

Never been in a weak group? Wow, that makes your post stand out with veracity... not. Especially when you make comments like "I haven't seen charm used effectively ever."

Charm should not be removed from the game, but I would have no problem with it being toned down to merely placating creatures so they don't attack and perhaps allowing them to give you information. As the game works right now I would have to laugh at any group not utilizing charm and bashing their way through Madstone elite. I just wouldn't want to be the healer of such a party as I was being entertained.

[Harbinder]

Charming enemy casters = priceless.;)

[Crabo]

Never been in a weak group? Wow, that makes your post stand out with veracity... not. Especially when you make comments like "I haven't seen charm used effectively ever."

Charm should not be removed from the game, but I would have no problem with it being toned down to merely placating creatures so they don't attack and perhaps allowing them to give you information. As the game works right now I would have to laugh at any group not utilizing charm and bashing their way through Madstone elite. I just wouldn't want to be the healer of such a party as I was being entertained.


Yea well you do madstone elite your way, i will do it mine. I haven't had any troubles in there, and haven't seen a charm used yet. So go on and laugh, my groups are sipping cold ones back at the gianthold while yours are still on the 2nd crystal. Just as i have 'never been in weak group', it seems you have never been in a strong one ;)

[sypress]

Never been in a weak group? I guess that's possible if you don't do pick up groups. I mostly play with friends, and we tend to work well together, but will occasionaly try out a random group. Sometimes that results in a lot of fun, meeting some cool new people, and even learning something new about the game. Other times it results in being reminded why I mostly group with friends. :)

As for charm - it's brilliant - it's like Control Magic in MTG - you're not just eliminating an enemy, you're gaining an ally. It can be really annoying at times - especially when you end up having to wait for the creature to save to kill it and get the next door to open - but that should really only happen to someone once before they learn to plan better next time.

It is not, however, a general use spell - i.e. it shouldn't be thrown about like a fighter swings a weapon. Calculated use of charms can swing the tide of battle and really benefit a group. But I think that's more an issue with how some people play casters - they want to have something to contribute at all times in every fight, and that's generally not the best use of a caster in a party. Even Sorcerers, with their low recharge time / high volume damage / massive SP, need to keep an eye towards conserving sp so they have something to unload on tough bosses. (particularly those with regen)

[Crabo]

Never been in a weak group? I guess that's possible if you don't do pick up groups. I mostly play with friends, and we tend to work well together, but will occasionaly try out a random group. Sometimes that results in a lot of fun, meeting some cool new people, and even learning something new about the game. Other times it results in being reminded why I mostly group with friends. :)

As for charm - it's brilliant - it's like Control Magic in MTG - you're not just eliminating an enemy, you're gaining an ally. It can be really annoying at times - especially when you end up having to wait for the creature to save to kill it and get the next door to open - but that should really only happen to someone once before they learn to plan better next time.

It is not, however, a general use spell - i.e. it shouldn't be thrown about like a fighter swings a weapon. Calculated use of charms can swing the tide of battle and really benefit a group. But I think that's more an issue with how some people play casters - they want to have something to contribute at all times in every fight, and that's generally not the best use of a caster in a party. Even Sorcerers, with their low recharge time / high volume damage / massive SP, need to keep an eye towards conserving sp so they have something to unload on tough bosses. (particularly those with regen)

If you check that post again you will see that i clearly said "IF people say it helps a weak group, well i have never been in a weak group " . Seems some people need this pointed out to them just as they need to be shown that haste on some decent fighters > charm any day of the week. Its no surprise though , peeps often only see what they want to see. Oh and for boss fights, why dont you just set your army of charmed bs onto it ? We all know they have uber dps and hitpoints and would last at least 2 seconds.

[sypress]

If you have to add caps to your restated point, it just reinforces that your original post wasn't as clear as it could have been.

To clear up my point about end bosses - it was actually against Charm - if you spend all of your SP using Charm during a mission, you may find yourself dry for the last boss - many of which can be anihillated by using maxed out magic missiles from a Sorcerer with full SP.

Haste is a great spell, but I don't think most casters would appreciate how insistant you seem to be about having it cast on you. Also, a good mix of strategies and play styles is part of what makes this game fun. If you're really not concerned about the journey, and just want the most efficient path to the end, might I recommend Progress Quest:

http://www.progressquest.com/

It's a game that will just run in the background for you and tell you what a great job you're doing leveling up.

[Hathor]

I actually like trying to keep the whole group hasted and buffed the entire dungeon on my bard, I consider the melees my personal minions. And I don't even need to charm them :p

The other characters in group? Support for my minions! Rawr! :D

[Olaustt]

I was in Madstone Elite last night, and found myself being more and more annoyed by the Sorceror constantly casting charm. I don't intend to tell people how to play their characters, that would be rude. I won't ask someone to leave based on their playstyle, that's rude too. But I admit I added the guy on my "do not group with again list". I understand charmed mobs have their place, and can be very helpful...when soloing. In a full well powered party it just annoys the heck out of me when the charms break behind the caster and start smacking the cleric...said sorc...waiting for the charm to wear off so we can take it out...and retracking through previously "cleared" areas only to get hammered by a stay monster that was charmed and got left behind. Am I just not "getting it" or should charms ONLY be used in severely underpowered groups and while soloing?

I think you are not getting it. In High end Quests anything you can do to increase your teams numbers is good. The Sorc is really taking most of the risk if they break charm. It is annoying when they charm the wrong mobs that you need to kill to get thru a door or gate. Keep on charming!

[Zorlinta]

yep im share ur thoughs hathor, but sometimes im like more npc minions bcos they not complain so much as melees :p

Anyway... charm is good spell, just it depends on the way it is used and a caster that uses it should keep dispell to can remove it whanever the mob is not usefull anymore. IF the party is strong enough or faster killing then mostly is few usage needed of charm, so is often better use the sp to haste melees. Im use charm mostly to stop weak mind & annoying mobs for a while, or well couple monsters to charge into a named to keep aggro away from mates.

Personally im use mobs to support melees blocking mobs, and haste melees, then if a party have healer just wield a destruction bow, else im wield wands :)

[Bloodmech]

I think charm is a great spell when used properly...allow me to explain, charm shouldn't be used on more than 3 in extreem cases 5 mobs at a time.

It shouldnt be used on things wit dirt low will saves, for they will never break, and will hust be obnoctious stand on the side of the screen creeping you out. alternitively it is a bad idea to charm high save enamys because they willt the first thousand attempts, and will break very shortly.

I love the spell...used correctly

[Samadhi]

My bard uses mass charm spells incessently (in missions where it is appropriate). Yes, I can dispell mobs, like orange named's that occassionally fall victim. Does it slow down the group? Not IMO, it enables us to zerg even faster. As long as the tanks can keep up with me and my army, they will all be dead before they break anyway. Since I charm in HUGE numbers, if they break my other charmed minions turn on them and get immediate aggro. There are missions I don't use it at all, and my sorc doesn't have room for it, but I assure you that extensive charming, while not necessary for any elite content, can be extremely useful and fun for moving quickly. Don't judge until you have seen it done right ;P

[Lithic]

Charm is actually a zerger's best friend. Now that coolodowns are so fast, I can lead a party almost unscathed through feast or famine in about 5mins. Charm one or two in a group and run past while they beat on their friends, then for the last fight charm EVERYTHING and you can just sit by the chest for a min while the boss dies.

[Majere_Aumar]

Check my use of charm to get around fights in the video below. As long as you don't have a (it must die for it to be neutralised) mindset (like goofy lumbering melees), charm is great for getting through to your target boss "very" quickly and efficiently.
This particular run was sloppy because I was experimenting with a few ideas and missed my landing pad.

It is a good idea to carry a break enchantment spell if you're going to charm big groups when running with a party though.

[ShrewMage]

Charm is a useful spell in certain situations, but overcharming is something that can be a major pain in the arse. Like said, there's no way to know exactly when the monster will break charm and decide to go rouge on everyone in the rear line, and scragglers in quests like PoP or Madstone can be devastating to toons less able to defend themselves or caught off guard.

Generally my motto is if I charm it, it's my responcibility to destroy it if they break. Therefore the MAX I ever charm is 3 monsters if even that many, unless the party requires more tankage and the chramed monsters are being killed faster than usual. For the most part the party will make light work of them if one or two happen break while in battle, but I've noticed here lately that more often charmed monsters will loose interest in following me and be left behind on the trail. Leaving nay sayers and people returning into the quest to deal with them alone.

My advice to anyone that enjoys charming large mobs to watch them fight as their "Army", first ask the party if this is acceptable. If you have 2-3 good tanks and are doing a lot of DPS, there may very well be no need for the monsters to fight for your party. And if you really want to get rid of a couple extra charmers in certain areas (i.e on the top levers inside PoP after the giant skelly fight or at the end of a tunnel inside Madstone) a Dispell magic wand or spell or Break Enchantment can take a few of them out of play and even the odds of less scraglers later on.

My personal favorite party breakup point caused by a charmer was in the quest across from the mailbox in House K (can't remember the name). Our bard had gotten the bright idea of charming one of the gargoyles close to the entrance of the quest after running ahead of the party, then proceeded to run into the middle of the room with the chest in it and the ice trap that closes you in with 3-4 Mephits. Although it was kind of humorous watching the event unfold, everyone got discouraged and left the party we had been knocking out elite quests with because of it.

However, when used properly it can be very useful and allow a party to go much faster through a quest while taking a lot less damage. Especially in parties where the majority of the members are of squishy nature :P

[Aranticus]

so far so most of the posts here are based on using charms to create allies to fight for you. i dun really use charms that way now due to the unpredictability.

so how i use it now? sneak up, charm 1, move back. the mobs will agro on their former friend and KILL it while sustaining damage themselves. i once did a charm on a troll who killed a group of 3 ogres. we then killed it w/ no one sustaining any injury.... figure how much sp is saved

[samho]

Suggestion/Mass Suggestion/Symbol of Persuasion always has a fixed duration (6 sec x caster level and extendedable). And I use Symbol more than mass one due to the reason -- you got a 22~28 sec time gap on the charm from symbol (since, not every single monster getting charm at the same time), so it's reasonable to predicate when "others" charmed monster drop their charm status.

However, another key was your teammate should realize how charm (especially those fixed duration one) works so they can cooperate with it. I too often ask the charmer in the party do they turn their extended on when they use it -- make it even more predictably.

[Nevthial]

There is no better feeling than to have your horde of controlled undead or charmed monsters rush forth to do your bidding while you and your party members stay back, hide , and watch. Toss in a few summoned monsters and sew the deal shut. Often times the people I group with will...Gasp!...Buff one or two of our charmed minions....We have never been wiped by our own. It may be due to the fact that we plan carefully and know what to expect of one another. If enemy spellcasters are present amongst a larger force of enemies, guess what ? They get charmed FIRST. What better way to save spell points than to have your enemies use their magic to your advantage?
Sit back, let the show begin......

[Aranticus]

Suggestion/Mass Suggestion/Symbol of Persuasion always has a fixed duration (6 sec x caster level and extendedable). And I use Symbol more than mass one due to the reason -- you got a 22~28 sec time gap on the charm from symbol (since, not every single monster getting charm at the same time), so it's reasonable to predicate when "others" charmed monster drop their charm status.

However, another key was your teammate should realize how charm (especially those fixed duration one) works so they can cooperate with it. I too often ask the charmer in the party do they turn their extended on when they use it -- make it even more predictably.

yes these are the predictable "charm" spells. this is the description for charm monster:

"An enemy monster is charmed and will fight as a trusted friend and ally. Charmed monsters get additional saving throws every 3d6+12 seconds. A successful Will save negates this effect."

and this for dominate:

"Telepathically controls the actions of a humanoid enemy, causing it to change sides. Dominate acts like Charm, but the target only gains additional Will saving throws every 10d6+30 seconds and has less chance to break free."

there are different uses for both sets of spells. for suggestion, etc they last 6x14 = 84 second or roughly 1 min 14 seconds. after which they have the freedom to think.

for charm and dominate they can last indefinately if the mob fails its throw every 15-30 or 40-90 seconds. they can last longer but they have unpredictability

[GeneralDiomedes]

What I think is absolutely hilarious is that a crowd of mobs can slice through a party like a swarm of cuisinarts evoking nothing more than a 'these guys are tough' but if ONE charmed monster breaks and so much as SCRATCHES anyone the person doing the charming gets flak from the whole party.

[samho]

As an enchantment spec caster, I will almost if not always use the fixed duration charm spell than random drop off charm, since

(1)Cost exactly the same sp if you do heighten them (and if you don't; Suggestion was 3rd level spell while Charm Monster was a 4th level spell which is less useful, aye how silly the implement it is. Dominate Person usually last less than a non-extended suggestion, yes another silly implement.) And generally we got more useful spell in 4th level selection than 3rd level. 6th can be another story but I almost always leave a symbol for situation usage.

(2)More predictability :p

[Crabo]

so far so most of the posts here are based on using charms to create allies to fight for you. i dun really use charms that way now due to the unpredictability.

so how i use it now? sneak up, charm 1, move back. the mobs will agro on their former friend and KILL it while sustaining damage themselves. i once did a charm on a troll who killed a group of 3 ogres. we then killed it w/ no one sustaining any injury.... figure how much sp is saved

Well it costs 30sp to heal one decent fighter that should be able to kill a few ogres and a troll. How much did your charm cost? The answer to your question lies there. Unless of course the charm cost more than 30sp.

[CSFurious]

i have been reading this thread today & decided to post now

first, this subject is a gray area, & to some in this thread it is clearly an issue that is black & white

i think that some casters give charms a bad name, & that they have their place in a group & actually using charms does not mean that the group is "gimp"

rather, the selective use of charms permits groups to adventure beyond their capabilites, i.e., charming the beholders in invaders makes the quest possible for characters who would get killed otherwise because they on their own could not kill the beholders fast enough

anyway, everyone hates the wizard who charms the skeleton in delera's, but i actually like to use the enemy against one another & will do limited charming with either my bard or sor for purposes of either strategy or just having plain old fun which in the end is what this game is about to me

[Aranticus]

Well it costs 30sp to heal one decent fighter that should be able to kill a few ogres and a troll. How much did your charm cost? The answer to your question lies there. Unless of course the charm cost more than 30sp.

suggestion = 20sp, charm = 25sp

[samho]

While Heal cost 35 sp and Symbol of Persuasion / Mass Suggestion just cost the same, I do somehow prefer using those charm if they can greater reduce the needed to Heal someone multiple times :-)

(Aye, I even use the symbol of persuasion to charm while on my cleric, or use symbol of fear to do another sort of CC)

[Aranticus]

While Heal cost 35 sp and Symbol of Persuasion / Mass Suggestion just cost the same, I do somehow prefer using those charm if they can greater reduce the needed to Heal someone multiple times :-)

(Aye, I even use the symbol of persuasion to charm while on my cleric, or use symbol of fear to do another sort of CC)

yeap, my clr has been doing preventive cleric-ing too

gone are the healbot style and more of the stun, smite, command, cometfall. 6 seconds with a good group is all that we need to clear a group of mobs. if the mobs are cc successfully, so much more sp is saved :)

[Epsilom]

I play casters mostly. I really enjoy it.
Here's my advice!

If you memorise Suggest...
Memorise Break Enchantment.

It's almost a duty.

[Hells_Henchman]

they do have their place, and sometimes they can b annoying, but so can tanks thinkin casters r haste clickies.....

no disrespect to anyone , imo u all have valid points .

just addind my 2 cents ( lol probably worth less )

[lherndo]

I've been on madstone with a fighter w/ a vorpal who was apparently rolling a 3 sided die and two of them were 20's!:rolleyes:

I've also run it with guildies two of which had disruptors,(one was a ranged weapon)

In either of these instances charming would have slowed us down.

But I've been in there with a group that didn't have overpowered weapons or 3 sided dice and taking half the mobs out of the fight not only saved us from taking a lot of dmg but It saved one giant's stone that I know of and thus saved the quest.(PS at the time of saving the stone none of actually knew whether or not that stone getting broken would automatically fail the quest or not, we didn't want to take a chance)

[Dariun]

When a fight is going badly and there is a potential for a party wipe, very few spells can turn the tide faster than a couple of quick suggestions/charms.

If the melees are overwhelmed, all the healing and hasting in the world won't save 'em. It will only delay the inevitable. But getting 2 of the enemy to join our side will usually turn the tide of battle.

If the melees are overpowered for the quest, then charms are not really useful.

[Thrudh]

To the op...i haven't seen charm used effectively ever, and have played the game since near the beginning. Charm should be removed from the game along with sacred and deception, they are all as useful as each other. If people say it helps a weak group, well i have never been in a weak group.

Wow, you've never seen charm used effectively? Then you've been in a LOT of weak groups...

It's extremely powerful... when used correctly...

It shouldn't be spammed and I think the individual charm spells used sparingly are much more effective than the Mass Charm symbols (which all wear off at the same time), but if you think charm is as useless as sacred and deception, then you don't know nearly as much about this game as you think you do.

[Thrudh]

FYI - A great use of charm is on a bunch of archers up on a ledge (Chains Of Flame, for example).. Charm one from a distance... ALL the other archers will aggro on the charmed one... the whole group runs through to the next door without getting hit at all..

Even in dungeons where you're going to climb up and fight the archers (like the archers on the catwalks in A Cry For Help), just charming one first means the melees can climb the ladders and get TO the archers without getting hurt, because all of the other archers are aggroed on the charmed one.

There are many many smart ways to use charm that make the quest go FASTER and with less damage for the group.

You have to actually be a smart player to know how to use it. Some people don't understand good tactics. Some people even post their ignorance, thinking it makes them look uber.

[Ghoste]

There are some basic guidelines for using charm spells effectively:
-Do not charm enemies that have to be killed to advance the quest.
-Do not have only 1 enemy charmed - it will turn on you.
-when using mass charm spells, make sure you are ready for when the time limit expires. Mass suggestion and symbol of persuasion both result in groups of charmed enemies all becoming uncharmed at the same time. Ways to prepare for this include losing your mob, or charming one or two individuals to take the beating for you. Individual charms have no set time limit, just intervals when saves are allowed.
-Lose those charmed guys. Let them start fighting the mobs, and run away. Or jump of a ledge so they cant follow you anymore. When you get back up, they will just stand in place and leave you alone.

Charm spells can either frustrate your group a lot, or work amazingly well. For groups that understand you dont have to kill everything, and casters who understand not to charm the mobs that have to be killed, you can fly through many quests much faster, and almost never have to worry about a charmed monster turning on you.

[Ghoste]

You have to actually be a smart player to know how to use it. Some people don't understand good tactics. Some people even post their ignorance, thinking it makes them look uber.
Had just gotten a short way through a longer quest and was using charm carefully. The ranger in the group put it very rudely that charm spells were useless and that I should have been using finger of death. Not only did he say I should be using finger of death, but that I should use nothing else.

I told him not to worry about it. I had a different strategy that hadnt harmed the group in any way. He said to call it a strategy, it has to be something that actually works, and left group.

Considering the length of the quest, and the small number of shrines, I would have run out of spell points very quickly using his "strategy".

[Gimpster]

Yea well you do madstone elite your way, i will do it mine. I haven't had any troubles in there, and haven't seen a charm used yet. So go on and laugh, my groups are sipping cold ones back at the gianthold while yours are still on the 2nd crystal.
If you think Charms make Madstone take longer, then you don't know how to do it.

There are numerous sections of Madstone Crater that you only need to pass through once. A single Charm Monster on a troll before they aggro means you do not need to fight ANY of those monsters. Just walk on by while they do the beatdown. Or even if you do want to kill them, there is literally no tank more survivable than an elite Madstone troll.

Likewise, when you are at the 2nd and 3rd crystals, Charming makes the fight trivially easy. There is no reason to worry about arrows or spells from the sniper monsters at all- just charm them all, and take an AFK break while the Giant Seer does his thing.

[Gimpster]

waiting for the charm to wear off so we can take it out...and retracking through previously "cleared" areas only to get hammered by a stay monster that was charmed and got left behind.
This is self-contradictory. If the single stray monster is powerful enough to smash you by itself, then it was powerful enough in a group that charming was an important part of victory.

Many groups cannot beat Madstone Elite without Charm at all. It brings that much power.

[Ghoste]

If you think Charms make Madstone take longer, then you don't know how to do it.

There are numerous sections of Madstone Crater that you only need to pass through once. A single Charm Monster on a troll before they aggro means you do not need to fight ANY of those monsters. Just walk on by while they do the beatdown. Or even if you do want to kill them, there is literally no tank more survivable than an elite Madstone troll.

Likewise, when you are at the 2nd and 3rd crystals, Charming makes the fight trivially easy. There is no reason to worry about arrows or spells from the sniper monsters at all- just charm them all, and take an AFK break while the Giant Seer does his thing.
Madstone was the quest I was doing when the ranger left cuz I wasnt using FoD exclusively. I think a big part of it was that he felt he had a really leet build, and somewhat resented the thought that it wasnt necessary to set him loose on the mobs.

Charm works especially great on Madstone because there are so many points where you can just walk through a cave entrance and leave them all behind.

I wouldnt say you have to use charm to beat that quest, but anyone who doesnt see it's usefuness is, in my opinion, not really thinking about it.

As an enchantment spec caster, I will almost if not always use the fixed duration charm spell than random drop off charm, since

(1)Cost exactly the same sp if you do heighten them (and if you don't; Suggestion was 3rd level spell while Charm Monster was a 4th level spell which is less useful, aye how silly the implement it is. Dominate Person usually last less than a non-extended suggestion, yes another silly implement.) And generally we got more useful spell in 4th level selection than 3rd level. 6th can be another story but I almost always leave a symbol for situation usage.

(2)More predictability :p
I have no idea why you're seeing these durations. Charm monster is lasting waaaaaay longer for me than the fixed duration ones.

[Aranticus]

FYI - A great use of charm is on a bunch of archers up on a ledge (Chains Of Flame, for example).. Charm one from a distance... ALL the other archers will aggro on the charmed one... the whole group runs through to the next door without getting hit at all..

Even in dungeons where you're going to climb up and fight the archers (like the archers on the catwalks in A Cry For Help), just charming one first means the melees can climb the ladders and get TO the archers without getting hurt, because all of the other archers are aggroed on the charmed one.

There are many many smart ways to use charm that make the quest go FASTER and with less damage for the group.

You have to actually be a smart player to know how to use it. Some people don't understand good tactics. Some people even post their ignorance, thinking it makes them look uber.

why charm when i can kill all using ck? it may be alittle slow to fog the area up but while i run up, they die so there is nothing to fight later on

[Aranticus]

This is self-contradictory. If the single stray monster is powerful enough to smash you by itself, then it was powerful enough in a group that charming was an important part of victory.

Many groups cannot beat Madstone Elite without Charm at all. It brings that much power.

Then again, there are many groups that beat it on elite w/o charm.... are they w/o the power?

ps i did it using symbol of fear at the seers

[sirgog]

Ran Stormcleave normal with a 5-7 party last night. In the boss fight, we didn't take a single point of damage. I just run in, spam Suggestion on all the giants except X'antilar, let the tanks run past the distracted giants and trip then kill the Elemental, then keep recasting Suggestion as it expires until the giants kill Xantilar and each other. We polish off the last remaining fire giant, all completely unhurt.

Whilst this room isn't tough for a party that doesn't use Charm, I've never seen it done as easily as 6 or 7 well-placed Suggestions let it be done.

Generally, with both my bard and my sorc, I stealth ahead of the party and set off a suggestion on one mob in any pack that looks halfway threatening. It's not to thin the numbers or to damage the other mobs in the pack - the real benefit is the distraction it provides. The whole pack of mobs aggros on their former friend, letting the party tanks tear them all to shreds.

If you don't like charms, give that strategy a try. Or come run Tangleroot on Elite with me on Khyber sometime.

Another thing that works wonders - hitting orange-named minibosses with Suggestion when they are surrounded by mobs. Give it a try on Tangleroot Elite (final quest with the two named ogres), or on Minotaur Lord Helos in Stormcleave. If you can make the charm stick, they'll wreak absolute havoc on their packs of mobs, and your party can just sit back, enjoy the show and then clean up the mess. No other spell works even close to as effectively in those situations.

[Galapas]

Generally, with both my bard and my sorc, I stealth ahead of the party and set off a suggestion on one mob in any pack that looks halfway threatening. It's not to thin the numbers or to damage the other mobs in the pack - the real benefit is the distraction it provides. The whole pack of mobs aggros on their former friend, letting the party tanks tear them all to shreds.



This is how I like to use the charm-type spells as well. It is particularly useful against a crowd that has casters in the back. Not only do the melee mobs crowd around the charmed guy, making it easier for our meleers to run around the group to get the casters, the enemy casters waste their first spell on the charmed guy.

[rimble]

If the quest doesn't require actually killing the creatures, I say charm away! I think we were doing A Cabal For One on Elite in 8 minutes last night with insane charm armies.

Well, I say 'we'...really, the casters, I just followed the pink pyramids around.

[Draclaud]

This is self-contradictory. If the single stray monster is powerful enough to smash you by itself, then it was powerful enough in a group that charming was an important part of victory.

Many groups cannot beat Madstone Elite without Charm at all. It brings that much power.

Squishy Mages, and Clerics going back to use the shrine by themselves... Yes the Mele's can handle it by themselves...

[CSFurious]

5 tanks & a cleric or bard can crush the final room on normal

charming in that room on normal is really quite irrelevant

now, if you do it by yourself on norm, that might be something to talk about vs. the sublimely ridiculous


Ran Stormcleave normal with a 5-7 party last night. In the boss fight, we didn't take a single point of damage. I just run in, spam Suggestion on all the giants except X'antilar, let the tanks run past the distracted giants and trip then kill the Elemental, then keep recasting Suggestion as it expires until the giants kill Xantilar and each other. We polish off the last remaining fire giant, all completely unhurt.

Whilst this room isn't tough for a party that doesn't use Charm, I've never seen it done as easily as 6 or 7 well-placed Suggestions let it be done.

Generally, with both my bard and my sorc, I stealth ahead of the party and set off a suggestion on one mob in any pack that looks halfway threatening. It's not to thin the numbers or to damage the other mobs in the pack - the real benefit is the distraction it provides. The whole pack of mobs aggros on their former friend, letting the party tanks tear them all to shreds.

If you don't like charms, give that strategy a try. Or come run Tangleroot on Elite with me on Khyber sometime.

Another thing that works wonders - hitting orange-named minibosses with Suggestion when they are surrounded by mobs. Give it a try on Tangleroot Elite (final quest with the two named ogres), or on Minotaur Lord Helos in Stormcleave. If you can make the charm stick, they'll wreak absolute havoc on their packs of mobs, and your party can just sit back, enjoy the show and then clean up the mess. No other spell works even close to as effectively in those situations.

[Katianara]

Charm is seriously overpowered and, coming from a caster, I hope it gets nerfed

[Nevthial]

Charm is seriously overpowered and, coming from a caster, I hope it gets nerfed

I bet you are glad it doesn't work as it does in PnP! One day/ level of caster duration for a Suggestion as an example. In my humble opinion, charm spells are "nerfed" as they are.

[Talon_Moonshadow]

I don't charm often, but I think they are great spells for CC. It breaks the mob into nice bytesized chunks. And for some reason, monsters seem almost more willing to agro on their turncoat brothers than the party. :)

But I get just as annoyed as the rest of the party if charming delays the game.
The thing I wish they would fix most in this game is having to wait for the charm to wear off for a door to open somewhere... :(

[KoboldKiller]

It can be very good in certain situations but my biggest complaint is when the party forgets about the charm, leaves a squishy behind, the charm breaks, and it turns on the squishy. I'm sure this was already mentioned but I had this heapen several times the other night so I thought I would mention it. Along the same lines I usually stay back in order to help when this happens.

[Talon_Moonshadow]

Suggestion/Mass Suggestion/Symbol of Persuasion always has a fixed duration (6 sec x caster level and extendedable). And I use Symbol more than mass one due to the reason -- you got a 22~28 sec time gap on the charm from symbol (since, not every single monster getting charm at the same time), so it's reasonable to predicate when "others" charmed monster drop their charm status.

However, another key was your teammate should realize how charm (especially those fixed duration one) works so they can cooperate with it. I too often ask the charmer in the party do they turn their extended on when they use it -- make it even more predictably.

From my Wiz's point of view, I see about 10 Hobgoblins running around a corner, about to destroy every one in the party....I cast mass charm and get 2 or 3 of them fighting for us......there friends turn on the charmed guys (at least some of them)......the melees quicky mop up the few that are attacking us.....then quickly mop up the rest of the uncharmed ones.........then usually wait a very short time for any still standing, still charms minions to pop (doesn't usually take long on elite.....and no one runs a quest on anything other than elite anymore)......fight finished.......no losses......little damage.....huge success ands great use of CC by the Wiz! :)

[Ghoste]

I try to get an idea for how well the party will react to it. But when I'm soloing, or 2manning, it's amazingly helpful.
Here's an example: link (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i3C8fHJyVXw) the whole time I only got hit once, and cast a total of 3 offensive spells (2 firewalls, 1 scorching ray)

For those who say it's overpowered, it is the same way in PnP. And dont even get me started on the differences between DDO and how much more overpowered wizards are in PnP.

[Talon_Moonshadow]

Had just gotten a short way through a longer quest and was using charm carefully. The ranger in the group put it very rudely that charm spells were useless and that I should have been using finger of death. Not only did he say I should be using finger of death, but that I should use nothing else.

I told him not to worry about it. I had a different strategy that hadnt harmed the group in any way. He said to call it a strategy, it has to be something that actually works, and left group.

Considering the length of the quest, and the small number of shrines, I would have run out of spell points very quickly using his "strategy".

Heck yeah! FOD uses a LOT of mana! My wiz carries it, but really doesn't use it much....cause I can't afford to. And I wouldn't consider FOD a CC spell.....but charms definately help the party.....even if they do slow them down, they still help

[Ghoste]

Heck yeah! FOD uses a LOT of mana! My wiz carries it, but really doesn't use it much....cause I can't afford to. And I wouldn't consider FOD a CC spell.....but charms definately help the party.....even if they do slow them down, they still help
Slow them down? Only if the fools are stopping to wait for the charms to come undone. At the very worst, it should only speed the quest up by removing however many were charmed from the to-kill list. A smart party would just let the charmed monster get swarmed and move on without killing that group, but unfortunately a large proportion of people who love to play tanks love to play them frighteningly similar to Leeroy Jenkins. Watch that vid in my above link. No way you could fly through a quest that fast killing everything yourself. At the end,the xp report said:
Kills
Raythe: 3
Misadventure: 34

[Darkcharm]

personally im all for charm, if ya dont charm 20 at a time. I have no clue why people like crabo say why dont you keep me hasted when your trying to buff and the tanks go flying into a mob swinging like mad men, and in a long battle which takes more than a minute what do u expect me to just run into a mob and haste ya? or could we try the tactic where i give ya a couple buddies? charm, suggestion, great if you carry dispel, sucks if ya dont. Although I play a more insane blasty wiz i've found myself using charm tons while soloing or doing small group stuff, however i dont often carry it unless the quest is way over my partys head.

[Raithe]

For those who say it's overpowered, it is the same way in PnP. And dont even get me started on the differences between DDO and how much more overpowered wizards are in PnP.


Charm Person
Enchantment (Charm) [Mind-Affecting]
Level: Brd 1, Sor/Wiz 1
Components: V, S
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels)
Target: One humanoid creature
Duration: 1 hour/level
Saving Throw: Will negates
Spell Resistance: Yes

This charm makes a humanoid creature regard you as its trusted friend and ally (treat the target’s attitude as friendly). If the creature is currently being threatened or attacked by you or your allies, however, it receives a +5 bonus on its saving throw.

The spell does not enable you to control the charmed person as if it were an automaton, but it perceives your words and actions in the most favorable way. You can try to give the subject orders, but you must win an opposed Charisma check to convince it to do anything it wouldn’t ordinarily do. (Retries are not allowed.) An affected creature never obeys suicidal or obviously harmful orders, but it might be convinced that something very dangerous is worth doing. Any act by you or your apparent allies that threatens the charmed person breaks the spell. You must speak the person’s language to communicate your commands, or else be good at pantomiming.




Charm Monster
Enchantment (Charm) [Mind-Affecting]
Level: Brd 3, Sor/Wiz 4
Target: One living creature
Duration: One day/level

This spell functions like charm person, except that the effect is not restricted by creature type or size.


http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/charmPerson.htm

[Frodo_Lives]

Charmed monsters can be a great asset to the party. Having 1/2 the monsters in the quest charmed at the same time however, may not be that great.

Charm a few, heck charm a lot as long as you let the charmed minions do the fighting. They will either be dead, or close to it and no problem to mop up once the charm wears off. Keep the total number of charmed mobs to a number where the group can wipe them out fairly easily if they all break at once and there should never be any problems if they do.

As a fighter I know that I would much rather have the mob beating on another mob than have both beating on me!

I have seen casters do amazing things with charm, and I have seen others who make it a nightmare. But I can say the same thing about so many things in this game that I don't think it is fair to blame the tactic of charming rather than the people who don't do it well.

[Kyuushuu]

A big part of the problem is communication, it helps a lot in a party when people let each other know a little bit about how they play.

Charm can be very useful, but if you are charming things you should be able to dispell it as well. Who cares if you charm a monster you need to kill then at the end of the battle if its still alive just dispell the charm and itll go down in a second or two.

What most people have said here is exactly true, charm is very useful when used in moderation and properly.

Also for the melees out there, Haste is great ya, but its not the only spell I carry around, and if you want haste come back when I tell you Im casting it.

[Ghoste]

It's not just communication, it's attitudes.

Ghoste: "If I sneak up and throw a charm on the guy standing in the middle of that room..."

Party Leader: "Charm?!! What a useless spell! No we're going to do something else. Hmm...what could work...hmmm...LEEERROOOOYYY NDJENNKKKIIINNSSS!!!!"

[Drakaan]

I disagree that charm is worthless in any form. I agree that is could be quite useful in solo situations, or used tastefully with the proper counterspell loaded. However, after grouping with numerous casters that cannot seem to understand this, I've adopted this opinion while playing my 'neutral' dwarven skull basher. If I'm not good enough to kill them the first time I get a crack at them, why should that change once the mobs break. Have fun with your minions. As far as I can see, they made the bed, I just let them lie in it. If the caster is prepared to dispell and deal with them one at a time, then he has played his character with great skill and talent and deserves my respect. If he winds up being the pivot man.... well, *chuckles* that player has no one but themselves to blame.
There is a use and a time for all things. You are limited only by your imagination. Just let common sense be your guide :).

[Snike]

Clerics save a lot of wand charges when someone is charming. Each charm is like an extra tank they don't need to heal.

[MrWizard]

I was in Madstone Elite last night, and found myself being more and more annoyed by the Sorceror constantly casting charm. I don't intend to tell people how to play their characters, that would be rude. I won't ask someone to leave based on their playstyle, that's rude too. But I admit I added the guy on my "do not group with again list". I understand charmed mobs have their place, and can be very helpful...when soloing. In a full well powered party it just annoys the heck out of me when the charms break behind the caster and start smacking the cleric...said sorc...waiting for the charm to wear off so we can take it out...and retracking through previously "cleared" areas only to get hammered by a stay monster that was charmed and got left behind. Am I just not "getting it" or should charms ONLY be used in severely underpowered groups and while soloing?

Break enchantment gets rid of charm.

Poor use of most spells are annoying.

Where, except in the beginning of madstone, do you ever have to backtrack where that will be an issue....

Never wait for charms to wear off, leave em...if they are an easy kill, then they should not be a problem, if the caster thinks you guys are going down to easy it is very helpful.

If you are an uber group, then he should just let ya kill em all...

If speed is what you want and you are uber, why not use the charms to just run by everything, kill the skellys, talk to the giant, and then move on....

Poor casting is poor casting.....so if he was a bad caster, just don't bring em along.

Hey, some people like different things when running a dungeon...some like to take all day and explore and kill everything, others like to just do what is required and finish it.

Conquestors, as a rule will hate charmers, because it is harder to do conquest if the party just runs through a dungeon.

Clerics dont mind charming as they save money on wands....

As always, you should tell party members if...

1) you are the type of person that must get ransack or you will die.
2) you are the type that must get conquest or die
3) you are the type that just wants to breeze through it.
4) You are newer and want to explore everything.
5) You want a fast run.....speed run....

If you do not make it clear to others, and they in turn do not make it clear to you, then you can have mighty problems in the quests....

A little communication can stave off playing issues...

[mark_redfern]

i appologigise if this has been said before but i am not going to read all of the previous posts! and this has to be said!

the worst posible quest to charm something in, is "the titen awakes".

i was in a pug group once 5 maning the titen, and the caster goes adn runs in the botom crystal room adn agros ALL of the warforged! so well what should he do?
A) pk / finger them 1 by 1
B) put up a fire wall and watch them all burn as you run around them
C) caster mass sugetion and watch them take down all the pillars one by one

well needless to say he chose option C.

i think its safe to say he ended up on four people "don't play with these people" list

p.s this has happened twice and i have now started warning people not to use charm under punishment of advertised stupidity

[teddok]

But on that note I have 2 rules....
Dont charm somthing that the tanks are beating on.
And always cary Break Enchantment or Dispel Magic.

[Tenkari_Rozahas]

Yes, Titan raids are the worst time to use the charm series of spells.

[Exilus]

charm is like tobasco, a little bit here and there can be great, but too much ... you get the idea. But when the sorc knows what he's doing and if the meatwalls, i i mean "front-line damage mitagation and reprisal specialists" have figured out how to use the pinkhats to their advantage, then it is one of the most useful tactics in the game. This is the opinion of a cleric, and it saves me beuxcoup sp and plat. i always keep dispel magic handy.

[frugal_gourmet]

They should simply make charm like real PNP D&D. A spellcaster can end his spell at any time as a free action. I don't see any reason this shouldn't be allowed in the game.