Rapier VS Khopesh, the showdown

[Vaern]

So, which weapon does more damage? I'm not talking single hit, I'm talking over say, 100 hits, 1000 hits, 10000 hits.

Most are going to say khopesh, but for arguements sake, as this is more a min/max arguement, we'll compare an Elven Fighter with a rapier and a Human Fighter with a Khopesh because that's the way I see it being most damaging.

Elven fighter specced for rapier 1d6 + 6 x2 15-20
+2 Elf Melee enhancements, +2 Weapon Spec., +2 Greater Weapon Spec., Improved Critical: Piercing

Human Fighter specced for Khopesh 1d8 +5 x3 17-20
+1 for Human STR II, +2 Weapon Spec., +2 Greater Weapon Spec., Improved Critical: Slashing

This is also not considering that you can attain a +1 higher to hit with the rapier as a result of elven racial enhancements.

Discuss!

[Casta]

most people who use rapiers are using finesse, so they have less str that means they do less damage.

[Vaern]

Finesse with a rapier is fantasticly underdamaging, however, since I want to know which is more damaging, we're going to assume that both characters are using strength. Why would you use a scimitar if you are an elf and you can use a rapier? You can squeeze more damage out of the rapier, if you're a strength based ranger you acan dual wield rapiers for some serious damage.

[KatanAztar]

Heres my math, dont be too critical of it heh....

Here's the assumption
Elven fighter specced for rapiers vs human fighter specced for kopesh both maxxed using +5's and power attack. I'm also assuming both only miss on a 1 only because this makes my math easier :cool:
Note: to-hit on elf will be higher by 2 while using rapier/shortswords

Elf fighter with rapier
13x30.5 = 396.5
6x30.5x2 = 366
Total 762.5 (gonna divide by 19 because im assuming rolls 2-20 hit)
average damage per hit = 40.13

Human fighter with kopesh
15x29.5=442
4x29.5x3= 796.5
average damage per hit = 41.89

Dont feel like explaining all the numbers but the elven enhancements were added in with damage. Assumed the average damage roll for rapier is 3.5 and with kopesh, 4.5

Kopesh comes out slightly higher in this test

[Paragon]

Its pretty much an accepted fact that Khopeshes do the most damage of any one-handed weapon.

As for the math, essentially khopeshes do 200% extra on 2 out of 20 hits, which comes out to 20% extra per hit, rapiers do 100% extra on 3 out of 20 hits, which is 15% extra per hit.

[Aranticus]

question is, are we comparing builds or are we comparing weapons. if we want to compare the weapons alone, then we need to set variables and constants. variable would be the rapier and khopesh, constant is everything else

[ManinBlaq]

Exactly as Aranticus suggests.

Your test 'platform' needs to be two identical human fighters, with the only variation being one uses Rapiers and the other is wielding a Khopesh.

Otherwise -- if you're comparing the a loaded Drow fighter vs a human barbarian with power critical, then you've proved nothing.

[Vaern]

I guess I should have been more specific.

Since this is more a min max discussion, I'm aiming to get the most damage out of the fighter character using a single weapon.

An elven fighter with a rapier is going to be the strongest way to build a fighter rapier character.

A human fighter with a khopesh is going to be the strongest way to build a fighter khopesh character.

When you compare it as average damages for each individual character based upon the enhancements it comes out to be identical.

1d6+2 is a range of 3 - 8 damage, meaning an average of 5.5 for the rapier

1d8+1 is a range of 2 - 9 damage, meaning an average of 5.5 for the khopesh

I know someone is going to try to call me out on this one and say that I'm doing something wrong by comparing slightly dissimilar characters, but what I'm aiming for here is optimization of the character, regardless of how it is being built.

I personally feel the the +1 additional to hit that an elven character can obtain with a rapier would make a slight difference, however I don't know quite how to quantify it.

Also there comes a point where the hits from the khopesh aren't as effective, persay. I'm not positive exactly how to get this across... but here goes.

Say you're fighting mobs with 45 hit points
Both of those weapons are doing 30 damage on an average hit, meaning it takes 2 hits to kill them, except on criticals.
On criticals, both weapons are one shotting the mobs. However now it appears that the rapier has a slight advantage, as its critting more often, and the extra damage the khopesh is doing is "wasted".

I'm not sure exactly how to quantify it, but I'm sure someone here it smart enough to put it into terms that are slighty easier to comprehend and far more mathmatically sound.


Its pretty much an accepted fact that Khopeshes do the most damage of any one-handed weapon.

As for the math, essentially khopeshes do 200% extra on 2 out of 20 hits, which comes out to 20% extra per hit, rapiers do 100% extra on 3 out of 20 hits, which is 15% extra per hit.
Somehow I feel that quote makes it appear as if there is a huge disparity in the damage. Remove the word extra and adjust the damage percents.
Khopeshes do 300% damage 10% of the time, Rapiers do 200% damage 15% of the time. Or with improved critical the % of the time is adjusted to 20% for Khopesh, 30% for Rapier, however those add up to be identical, do they not?

Its these very subtle difference that caused me to raise the question in the first place, I'm not trying to be a prick, just trying to start some conversation to see if perhaps something was overlooked.
-Vaern

[Garth_of_Sarlona]

I guess I should have been more specific.

Since this is more a min max discussion, I'm aiming to get the most damage out of the fighter character using a single weapon.

http://www.afterlifeguild.org/Thott/ddo/

Type it in, work it out, problem solved.

Garth

[Gimpster]

Most are going to say khopesh, but for arguements sake, as this is more a min/max arguement, we'll compare an Elven Fighter with a rapier and a Human Fighter with a Khopesh because that's the way I see it being most damaging.

I'll give you some numerical results. This assumes the same fighter with both weapons. He has strength 32, Power Attack, Greater Focus both, Greater Spec both, and Imp Crit both. He also has Elf Melee II, which gives +2 to the rapier (making it effectively a +7 weapon).

There are two separate khopesh entries. The first has 32 str, and the second has 34 str representing both a +3 strength tome and Human Versatility (making it effectively a +6 weapon).

Against AC (30 / 35 / 40 / 45), the average total damage of a four-attack combo is:

Rapier+7: 151 / 131 / 101 / 60
Khopesh+5: 149 / 124 / 88 / 46
Khopesh+6: 158 / 135 / 100 / 56

So, if strength is equal, then rapier is slightly ahead at low ACs, but khopesh is better if you get +1 strength with it. However at high ACs the rapier becomes better, because the increased chance to hit makes more of a difference. However, I don't think such high ACs are common enough in DDO to be worth planning for.

[Vaern]

Thanks Garth, you come across as a bit of a troll against discussion, but the link you posted was pretty helpful.

It does appear that currently the khopesh has the potential to outdamage the rapier in some armor ranges, yet its a bloody close call.

One thing that I noticed was that as soon as I plugged in something resembling an Elven Melee Damage III enhancement, that the rapier overtakes the khopesh on every roll until the AC's get up to the 62-63 range, when Khopesh and Rapier are identical.

Now this is assuming that the human isn't going to gain additional +2 strength over the next 6 levels. An additional +1 strength won't matter, unless it puts the human at an even number, and the elf at an odd.

So what will this do to the feasibility of using a Khopesh endgame as far as it currently being a higher dps weapon, if anything?

-Vaern

[Gimpster]

One thing that I noticed was that as soon as I plugged in something resembling an Elven Melee Damage III enhancement
There isn't going to be any higher grade of Elf Melee Damage. The whole point of the Academy Training update was so that characters advancing in level would get more enhancement series, instead of increasing their present enhancements to ever-higher numbers.


So what will this do to the feasibility of using a Khopesh endgame as far as it currently being a higher dps weapon, if anything?
It's very feasible right now. In fact, it's just about a stereotype to see 80% of top-level fighters and paladins holding a khopesh.

Human Khopesh:
Costs a feat (but as a human, you had an extra)
+1 strength is useful for every other melee weapon, especially two-handers
+1 strength helps you trip, stun, and resist knockdown
The slashing feats that benefit the khopesh also benefit powerful two-handed weapons, especially the named Sword of Shadows.
There is an excellent named khopesh in raid loot. +5 Anarchic True Chaos Khopesh that heals you 1 hp each time you hit a monster.
If you get the rare Bloodstone named item, it gives you +18 damage on every khopesh crit, which is a bigger benefit than the +12 damage it would give to rapier crits.

Elf rapier:
Costs 12 AP.
The enhancements give you no benefit with other weapons except longswords.
The feats to improve the rapier will help you use rapiers of banishing/puncturing, which do not occur on slashing weapons.
There are NO good named rapiers, in raid loot or otherwise. The closest is Tyrzza's Bane, +3 True Law Cold Iron of Pure Good, which can't hold a candle to the overpowered slashing weapons in DDO.

If you're an "endgame" focused warrior, I really recommend the slashing weapons including khopesh. The exception would be if you're a high-AC Combat Expertise build, and won't ever be going two-handed. In that case, the khopesh's synergy with greatswords is less valuable.

[Creeper]

Don't forget puncturing and don't forget to calculate potential threat range increasing mods. Like barb crit and perhaps even weapons master. That will change things a bit. The heavy pick becomes a more viable option at
17-20 x4 vs. 15-20 x3 vs. 13-20 x2.

Then consider if the elf is a barbarian that can trade in their +2 to hit with a rapier for +2 power attack enhancement. A dual wielding elf barbarian with wounding rapiers of puncturing that crits on a 13-20 will potentially outkill a THF on high-end content in most situations. That is almost impossible to calculate however.
At least I won’t do it.

[Vhlad]

There is no human str II. There's only human str I. (the other human stat enhancement cannot be of the same type).

However, that currently gives a human a max of 34 str (with a +3 tome), whereas the elf could only get 33.

Here's your comparison:
Elf fighter with melee attack II and damage II (costs 12 enhancement points for this).
Human fighter with exotic prof khopesh (costs 1 feat) and human str I (2 pts).

Elf: +5 holy rapier, bloodstone, 32 str, improved crit, greater weapon focus, greater weapon specialization
Human: +5 holy khopesh, bloodstone, 34 str, improved crit, greater weapon focus, greater weapon specialization

Comparison (http://www.afterlifeguild.org/Thott/ddo/analyze.php?1label=%2B5+rapier+%28elf%29&1bab=14&1atktype=1h&1spm=90&1phd=1d6%2B7&1phed=2d6&1phth=7&1phthreat=15-20%2Fx2&1phxcrit=12&1phefocus=on&1phespec=on&1ohd=&1ohed=&1ohth=&1ohthreat=&1ohxcrit=&1str=32&1dex=24&1pwr=on&1sneakpct=&1sneakd=&1cleavepct=&2label=%2B5+khopesh+%28human%29&2bab=14&2atktype=1h&2spm=90&2phd=1d8%2B5&2phed=2d6&2phth=5&2phthreat=17-20%2Fx3&2phxcrit=18&2phefocus=on&2phespec=on&2ohd=&2ohed=&2ohth=&2ohthreat=&2ohxcrit=&2str=34&2dex=24&2pwr=on&2sneakpct=&2sneakd=&2cleavepct=&report=on&minac=10&maxac=70)

You should be able to click modify to examine the parameters (but it may reset, depending on your browser settings). I adjusted the crit ranges specifically instead of clicking the feat box.

The difference is minor. Other considerations: would you rather spend 12 enhancement points or a feat and 2 pts? Furthermore, the extra bonus to str means higher DC to trip/stun, better jump, etc, but when the level cap raises again the str might end up being even (it depends - we'll get 1 str from lvl 16, but if they introduce +4 tomes at that point then the human will still have a theoretical maximum str that is one bonus higher). And slashing is more versatile than piercing in terms of melee weapon selection.

There are times when you may want to go 2 handed, and there's no two handed piercing melee weapon. And... Sword of shadow (slashing) blows everything out of the water.


dual wielding elf barbarian with wounding rapiers of puncturing that crits on a 13-20 will potentially outkill ....
I wouldn't build around stat damage. It becomes ineffective when it counts (i.e. vs raid bosses, red named, etc). Something like a dual vorpal kama wielding monk with flurry of blows and all the TWF feats will be fun in most quests, but not nearly as good as a properly built DPS fighter/barb in the raids we've seen so far.

Oh. Someone already posted the link. :o

[Creeper]

I wouldn't build around stat damage. It becomes ineffective when it counts (i.e. vs raid bosses, red named, etc). Something like a dual vorpal kama wielding monk with flurry of blows and all the TWF feats will be fun in most quests, but not nearly as good as a properly built DPS fighter/barb in the raids we've seen so far.


DPS doesn’t have to be compromised to use stat damage. As long as you don’t make a weapon finesse build. I have a dual wielder with 32 str and 17 dex that uses vorpals/stat damage and all he has to do for red bosses is click on a hotkey to dual wield bursting khopesh = instant DPS. People always think they have to alter their build to use stat damage. Not sure what the logic is there.

Also, might wanna add the enhancement cost of the human ability score increase into your comparison.

I’d also disagree that a dual wielding vorpal monk would be less effective in the raids than a fighter/barb since monks haven’t been introduced yet and we have no idea which direction turbine is going to take with them. For the red bosses just… don’t use a vorpal?
Monks do not have to compromise damage either if str based.


And slashing is more versatile than piercing in terms of melee weapon selection.

This isn’t true unless you are just talking about raid loot. Piercers have a lot more potential enhancements that slashers don’t. Slashers just get the big one: Vorpal. Every other enhancement that slashers get piercers get and then some.

[Gimpster]

Elf: +5 holy rapier, bloodstone, 32 str, improved crit, greater weapon focus, greater weapon specialization
Human: +5 holy khopesh, bloodstone, 34 str, improved crit, greater weapon focus, greater weapon specialization
Aside from other bugs I've noticed in the past, the website you are using is unable to calculate the effects of the Bloodstone.

Since the bloodstone gives a greater benefit to khopeshes than to rapiers, that means your charts make the rapier look better than it actually is.

[Gimpster]

Monks do not have to compromise damage either if str based.
Because of a certain overpowered named item, any DDO character compromises their damge if they lack Greatsword proficiency.

[Creeper]

I've found dual wielding bursting khopeshs to equal a lot more kills than the SOS. Every time. By a large majority. But I use fighters haste boost and haste pots. Along with all the TWF feats I havent seen any THF be able to equal the same DPS. Some did get close before glancing blows was nerfed.

[Gimpster]

I've found dual wielding bursting khopeshs to equal a lot more kills than the SOS. Every time. By a large majority.
Well, the Khopesh is also overpowered in DDO. But that won't help a monk- even if they spend a feat on proficiency, they still can't use their Flurry attacks with a such a weapon.

[Vaern]

So, from the comparison that Vhlad/Sair posted it looks like the rapier was narrowly edging out the khopesh in terms of damage. Sorry if I'm not up to date on all of this, I played in Twilight Avengers for a while and the left for 9 months (Lack of content when I had plenty of extra time, real life issues). I remember discussing this same comparison with Illuminati, and it was close... I understand that both weapons do a lot of damage, there is absolutely no arguement there. Both weapons are feasible as endgame dps. And I also understand that situationally both weapons have areas where they will shine. Against undead the piercing won'tbe nearly as effective, but against your run of the mill fleshy mobs, I'm sure puncturing can be used to produce some higher kill counts.

-Vaern

[Creeper]

Well, the Khopesh is also overpowered in DDO. But that won't help a monk- even if they spend a feat on proficiency, they still can't use their Flurry attacks with a such a weapon.


Truely. Surely they will add some gauntlets that add to a monks unarmed attacks. I never liked kamas, but loved monks. A monk's unarmed damage mods increase with level so maybe we'll see some enhancement lines that help that out.

[Vhlad]

Aside from other bugs I've noticed in the past, the website you are using is unable to calculate the effects of the Bloodstone.

Since the bloodstone gives a greater benefit to khopeshes than to rapiers, that means your charts make the rapier look better than it actually is.

You can put it in yourself, via the extra damage on a crit entry (which I did). 12 extra damage for rapier, 18 for khopesh.

[Vhlad]

DPS doesn’t have to be compromised to use stat damage. As long as you don’t make a weapon finesse build. I have a dual wielder with 32 str and 17 dex that uses vorpals/stat damage and all he has to do for red bosses is click on a hotkey to dual wield bursting khopesh = instant DPS. People always think they have to alter their build to use stat damage. Not sure what the logic is there.
Yes, but that doesn't change the fact that you should not build a character around stat damage, which is all I said. I also wouldn't recommend using 2 khopeshs...


Also, might wanna add the enhancement cost of the human ability score increase into your comparison.
True. 2 pts.


I’d also disagree that a dual wielding vorpal monk would be less effective in the raids than a fighter/barb since monks haven’t been introduced yet and we have no idea which direction turbine is going to take with them. For the red bosses just… don’t use a vorpal?
Monks do not have to compromise damage either if str based.
Well. It was just an example. But to back it up, that monk would:
- sacrifice feats on TWF (it is somewhat a sacrifice, considering there's toughness, power attack, improved crit unarmed (or kama), weapon focus unarmed (or kama), greater weapon focus, etc. It will also be somewhat lame having to choose between unarmed or kama, considering all the different kinds of monsters we face and weapon effects we need (like ghost touch)
- have to invest in wis (sacrificing str or con)
- have to not wear armor (I won't get into this)
- roll a d8
- base attack that is 5 lower. This will be a bigger difference in DDO than D&D because of the way DDO does melee attack rounds (i.e. base, base, base + bonus, base + bonus).
- don't have intimidate as a class skill


This isn’t true unless you are just talking about raid loot. Piercers have a lot more potential enhancements that slashers don’t. Slashers just get the big one: Vorpal. Every other enhancement that slashers get piercers get and then some.
I meant 2 things from this:
1) if you are spending 12 pts on elf melee attack/damage and focusing on piercing, then that pretty much restricts you to using rapiers (elf) or rapier/shortword (drow) to be optimal. Not much versatility there.
2) if you want to use piercing weapons, what are your options? dagger, shortsword, light pick, heavy pick, rapier. Compare to slashing: kukri, sickle, scimitar, battleaxe, handaxe, khopesh, longsword, dwarven axe, greataxe, greatsword, bastard sword, kama, falchion. Based on quantity alone, slashing is more versatile.

EDIT:
Here's dual +5 flaming burst khopesh with all the TWF feats vs a SoS with all the THF feats (THF = 18-21 dmg every other attack from glancing blows. I emulated this by adding 9 extra damage to the calculation (in the box that's uneffected by critical hit increases). But this then of course assumes single target only, whereas glancing blow is applied to an arc, which increases DPS if there is over 1 target).

Assuming bloodstone, 32 str, 24 dex, greater weapon focus, greater weapon spec, improved crit.

Dual +5 flaming burst khopesh vs SoS (http://www.afterlifeguild.org/Thott/ddo/analyze.php?1label=dual+%2B5+burst+khopesh&1bab=14&1atktype=dw&1spm=90&1phd=1d8%2B5&1phed=1d6&1phth=5&1phthreat=17-20%2Fx3&1phxcrit=2d10%2B18&1phefocus=on&1phespec=on&1ohd=1d8%2B5&1ohed=1d6&1ohth=5&1ohthreat=17-20%2Fx3&1ohxcrit=2d10%2B18&1ohefocus=on&1ohespec=on&1str=32&1dex=24&12wpn=on&1imp2wpn=on&1gtr2wpn=on&1pwr=on&1sneakpct=&1sneakd=&1cleavepct=&2label=SoS&2bab=14&2atktype=2h&2spm=90&2phd=2d6%2B5&2phed=9&2phth=5&2phthreat=15-20%2Fx3&2phxcrit=18&2phefocus=on&2phespec=on&2ohd=&2ohed=&2ohth=&2ohthreat=&2ohxcrit=&2str=32&2dex=24&2pwr=on&2sneakpct=&2sneakd=&2cleavepct=&report=on&minac=10&maxac=70)

[sigtrent]

The difference is clearly small enough that whomever has the more optimal specific weapon will win the DPS contest rather than the build difference.

If you have a killer kopest... go for it. Killer Rapier.. ditto. All said and done no one will much notice. ;)

BTW: Having played around with dual wielding kopeshs I can say that it works just fine if you have a sufficient attack bonus vs the ac of your target. I tend to do it when facing soft targets, or I'm heavily buffed. Same goes for dualing rapiers etc.. It's an attack penalty, but if you have massive bonuses to attack it matters not.

And anyhow, Two handed DPS or Two Weapon DPS is going to crush one handed. You also have the dwarf in there with his d10 X3 option which has its own advantages.

When it comes down to it even an un-optimal character can annialate stuff. Personaly I carry a golf bag of weapons to face different mosnters, including all three damage types, all three alignment types, various elemental types, multiple special effects etc...

[Creeper]

Well. It was just an example. But to back it up, that monk would:
- sacrifice feats on TWF (it is somewhat a sacrifice, considering there's toughness, power attack, improved crit unarmed (or kama), weapon focus unarmed (or kama), greater weapon focus, etc. It will also be somewhat lame having to choose between unarmed or kama, considering all the different kinds of monsters we face and weapon effects we need (like ghost touch)
- have to invest in wis (sacrificing str or con)
- have to not wear armor (I won't get into this)
- roll a d8
- base attack that is 5 lower. This will be a bigger difference in DDO than D&D because of the way DDO does melee attack rounds (i.e. base, base, base + bonus, base + bonus).
- don't have intimidate as a class skill


Again I wouldn't debate too many non-facts about how poorly you think a monk would fare vs. a fighter in DDO as monks have not been introduced to DDO yet. There really is no way to "back it up".... Not until we see the enhancement line and potential new weapon types. This really can't be debated with any degree of accuracy....

I also don't think glancing blows is equal to +9 damage to every hit =)
No suggestion on how to emulate it better tho. Also, are you sure that adds EVERY TWF feat? Including the two that increase attacks per round?


Based on quantity alone, slashing is more versatile.

Just for the sake of argument, based on versatility of weapon effects piercing wins because it has more potential uses. There are more different types of slashers of course, but not as many potential combinations of effects. So it's a wash IMO.

[Vhlad]

Again I wouldn't debate too many non-facts about how poorly you think a monk would fare vs. a fighter in DDO as monks have not been introduced to DDO yet. There really is no way to "back it up".... Not until we see the enhancement line and potential new weapon types. This really can't be debated with any degree of accuracy....

I also don't think glancing blows is equal to +9 damage to every hit =)

All the points I made about monk were based off the pnp class description. In DDO, they will still have 1d8, not wear armor, have 5 lower base attack, not have intimidate as a class skill, have to choose between unarmed/kama, limit their feats by choosing TWF, etc. There's no real uncertainty there.

Regarding glancing blow: It's 18-21 damage on the 1st and 4th swing in the attack chain with all the THF feats. In other words, 9 dmg average by taking the lowest amount. And again, that's on a single target, whereas glancing blow = arc = more DPS for > 1 mob.

[Creeper]

All the points I made about monk were based off the pnp class description. In DDO, they will still have 1d8, not wear armor, have 5 lower base attack, not have intimidate as a class skill, have to choose between unarmed/kama, limit their feats by choosing TWF, etc. There's no real uncertainty there.


Certainly there is uncertainty! Enhancements are very important! You fail to mention evasion, still mind, ki strike, purity of body, wholeness of body, improved evasion, diamond body, greater flurry of blows, diamonds soul, and quivering palm. That's only going up to level 15.

EDIT: oh yeah... and HUGE SAVES!

There very well may be a huge TWF enhancement line for monks or an unarmed or kama damage and attack bonus. You also have no idea if there will be new gauntlet-type weapons introduced or monk-specific robes. You also do not know if there will be un-armored AC bonus enhancements per level.

And you mention they don't get intimidate as a class skill, they do however get more class skills than a fighter or barb in PNP at least.
There is simply no way to accuratly calculate how the monk is going to fare in DDO at this time. Not possible.

[Vhlad]

Notice the use of the word there, which means I was referring specifically to the points I raised.

[Creeper]

K, nevermind then. But monks get 3d6 base unarmed damage at level 12 not 1d8 (Unless they are halflings which are supposed to only get 1d10.) At 20th level they get 4d8.

[Vhlad]

Sorry, 1d8 was referring to hit die. Although speaking of attack die, it will be interesting to see if halflings wielding large weapons or doing medium sized unarmed damage, etc will be fixed.
Oh and 3d6, 4d8 are for large monk. It's 2d6 and 2d10 for medium.

It's going to be some time before we see monk anyway. New attack animations / routines for unarmed and flurry. So that's base animation for each race that needs to be done. Unless they just give monk the TWF attack animation.. and add extra dice for flurry. But that would look a little silly with just fists. And gloves for monks that have attributes like ghost touch, flaming/acid (for those new trolls) etc would help handle that whole kama vs unarmed thing.

[Creeper]

Yeah, and eventually they get adamantine, magic, and true law to bypass damage reduction on unarmed. I wouldn't be suprised if they added some type of damage bonus to this in DDO. Such as adding true law damage for instance. Perhaps enhancement lines adding magical energy to attacks. Who knows. I'll be very disappointed if monks don't kick =(

[Vaern]

Glad to see this turned into a monk vs fighter thread... not...

[Vhlad]

Glad to see this turned into a monk vs fighter thread... not...

Hey! That conversation is over! Off with you!

Actually, if you are looking to build the best fighter possible (and are looking at end game) a future monk is something to consider. Orc race might be interesting too. More likely than not, by level 20, a character made now will have to be rerolled to be completely optimum. But I agree, we did go a little off topic ;p

[Gimpster]

You can put it in yourself, via the extra damage on a crit entry (which I did). 12 extra damage for rapier, 18 for khopesh.
No, you can't put it in yourself. There is no way for that tool to recognize the effect of a +6 bonus to confirm critical hits. It can't handle Seeker items and it can't handle Fighter Critical Accuracy- and both of those effects give a (slightly) larger benefit to the khopesh than to the rapier.

[Vhlad]

No, you can't put it in yourself. There is no way for that tool to recognize the effect of a +6 bonus to confirm critical hits. It can't handle Seeker items and it can't handle Fighter Critical Accuracy- and both of those effects give a (slightly) larger benefit to the khopesh than to the rapier.

Why would a bonus to confirm crits have a larger benefit to the khopesh? Rapier = longer crit range = greater frequency at which seeker effect comes into play.

** correction made ** The benefit is situational. See page 4.

Either way, I don't think I've ever faced a mob where a roll of 15 or above is a miss, so that specific effect IMO does not make a difference.

One thing I did forget to do though was add +4 to the hit bonus for those comparisons, to account for greater hero.

[Protagoras]

Why would a bonus to confirm crits have a larger benefit to the khopesh? Rapier = longer crit range = greater frequency at which seeker effect comes into play.

i.e. vs a high AC mob, assume a roll of 16 is a miss. With a khopesh, it is a miss. With a rapier, it is a critical threat. Then a new roll is made with the seeker bonus to confirm, which could end up being a hit. Right?


Nope! In order to score a threat you have to HIT with a roll within your threat range. You must first hit. The Higher the AC the more it benefits a smaller threat range higher multiplier weapon like the Khopesh.

As to why crit confirms will help a Khopesh over a rapier is that the Khopesh derives more of its benefit from crits. MMmmm because of its multiplier the more pluses you have from say Str to damage the more times you get the X3 over the X2 of rapier. If you fail to confirm a crit, the Khopesh loses out more relatively as it losses a potential STR x 3 Crit, whereas the Rapier only lost a STR x 2. Throw some stuff into a spreadsheet and play with the numbers I think you will see what I mean. And you will need to remember to consider the Str Bonus, you will find that the higher your Str the better the khopesh will fair, as well as the more often crits are confirmed. There will be a sweet spot of Str bonus where the Khopesh surpasses the Rapier, I don't know where it is, but its there. Well I assume its there.. I did all this analysis with the Dorf Axe compared to the Khopesh and saw how this works there.

[Vhlad]

Nope! In order to score a threat you have to HIT with a roll within your threat range. You must first hit. The Higher the AC the more it benefits a smaller threat range higher multiplier weapon like the Khopesh.

Oh, ok. Thanks for the correction there. Although it really doesn't matter because I never see a miss on a 15+ :)

Compare the +5 holy rapier (elf) vs +5 holy khopesh (human) for 32 str/ 34 str VS 50 str/ 52 str. The 32/34 one is in page 1 somewhere, and here's the 50/52 one:

big str! (http://www.afterlifeguild.org/Thott/ddo/analyze.php?1label=rapier%2C+elf&1bab=14&1atktype=1h&1spm=90&1phd=1d6%2B7&1phed=2d6&1phth=7&1phthreat=15-20%2Fx2&1phxcrit=12&1phefocus=on&1phespec=on&1ohd=1d4&1ohed=0&1ohth=0&1ohthreat=18-20%2Fx2&1ohxcrit=&1str=50&1dex=22&1pwr=on&1sneakpct=0&1sneakd=1d6&1cleavepct=0&2label=khopesh%2C+human&2bab=14&2atktype=1h&2spm=90&2phd=1d8%2B5&2phed=2d6&2phth=5&2phthreat=17-20%2Fx3&2phxcrit=18&2phefocus=on&2phespec=on&2ohd=&2ohed=&2ohth=&2ohthreat=&2ohxcrit=&2str=52&2dex=22&2pwr=on&2sneakpct=&2sneakd=&2cleavepct=&report=on&minac=10&maxac=70)

Difference is basically the same. So for khopesh vs rapier, str doesn't seem to matter. <-- OK. I made a mistake here. The critical contribution from str is the same, but khopesh benefits slighly. (i.e. 25B vs 27B. so there's a larger difference with greater B; refer to my big post in page 4).

[Garth_of_Sarlona]

Thanks Garth, you come across as a bit of a troll against discussion, but the link you posted was pretty helpful.

Lol wasn't meaning to stifle discussion just every build is different - i.e. you will find that a drow with the racial enhancements will have different results to other characters

You're more than welcome to call me sad, but I spend many a happy hour tapping stats of weapons I see on my AH into that builder, but until I'm persuaded otherwise I'm going to stay twf with my drow finesse build with a +5 holy SS in one hand and a +5 holy rapier in the other hand... simple, effective :)

Garth

[Vaern]

The only situation I can currently see the khopesh critical really overtaking the rapier is when both weapons will only hit on a natural 20. The rapier character can attain a to hit 1 higher than the character with the khopesh, so if the khopesh is only hitting on a 20, and the rapier is hitting on a 19-20, the rapier WILL do more damage, as the critical accuracy enhancements will benefit both weapons equally at that point, if not favoring the rapier.

[Aranticus]

Why would a bonus to confirm crits have a larger benefit to the khopesh? Rapier = longer crit range = greater frequency at which seeker effect comes into play.

i.e. vs a high AC mob, assume a roll of 16 is a miss. With a khopesh, it is a miss. With a rapier, it is a critical threat. Then a new roll is made with the seeker bonus to confirm, which could end up being a hit. Right?

Either way, I don't think I've ever faced a mob where a roll of 15 or above is a miss, so that specific effect IMO does not make a difference. And with regard to confirming crit rolls after already rolling a threat, the benefit to each weapon is the same.

One thing I did forget to do though was add +4 to the hit bonus for those comparisons, to account for greater hero (which is always on, via planar gird x 6).

exactly how high is a high ac mob? currently my ftr in gianthold is hitting stuff on a roll of 2 (with a +1 weapon, 1st strike). is the rapier going to do me good? a rapier is better if you have a narrower attacking range, with such a wide range, it doesnt really matter which weapon you are using.

btw with a bloodstone, my holy burst of lesser dragon bane did 97+10+18+4 on 1 of the dragon. a rapier cant do that kind of damage

[Vaern]

btw with a bloodstone, my holy burst of lesser dragon bane did 97+10+18+4 on 1 of the dragon. a rapier cant do that kind of damage

Its thinking like this that tarnishes actual arguement. That's a single hit. You have the potential to get those over a range of 4, a rapier has the potential to get slightly less over 6. This is called, average damage. Now in 10 hits, you have the potential to do huge huge damage, you can crit and max damage every hit. however over 10,000 hits, it tends toward the "normal", in this case the normal is your average damage.

/endlesson

[Aranticus]

Its thinking like this that tarnishes actual arguement. That's a single hit. You have the potential to get those over a range of 4, a rapier has the potential to get slightly less over 6. This is called, average damage. Now in 10 hits, you have the potential to do huge huge damage, you can crit and max damage every hit. however over 10,000 hits, it tends toward the "normal", in this case the normal is your average damage.

/endlesson

dear teacher,

what i'm demonstrating is the effect of criticals on comparison. if you choose just to read in between the lines, its fine but it goes to show your character. here is the low down on a 30 str, 10 dex ftr using a +1 flaming burst rapier/khopesh, each spec-ced for the piercing or slashing.

http://www.afterlifeguild.org/Thott/ddo/analyze.php?1label=flaming+burst+rapier&1bab=14&1atktype=1h&1spm=90&1phd=1d6%2B1&1phed=1d6&1phth=1&1phthreat=18-20%2Fx2&1phxcrit=1d10&1phfocus=on&1phefocus=on&1phspec=on&1phespec=on&1phcrit=on&1ohd=&1ohed=&1ohth=&1ohthreat=&1ohxcrit=&1str=30&1dex=10&1sneakpct=&1sneakd=&1cleavepct=&2label=flaming+burst+khopesh&2bab=14&2atktype=1h&2spm=90&2phd=1d8%2B1&2phed=1d6&2phth=1&2phthreat=19-20%2Fx3&2phxcrit=2d10&2phfocus=on&2phefocus=on&2phspec=on&2phespec=on&2phcrit=on&2ohd=&2ohed=&2ohth=&2ohthreat=&2ohxcrit=&2str=30&2dex=10&2sneakpct=&2sneakd=&2cleavepct=&report=on&minac=10&maxac=50

just comparing a normal (meaning w/o burst) weapon, the rapier is the winner. but when we include burst effects, the khopesh gains and advantage. most of the players using khopeshes do not use a simple +5 flaming khopesh. if they could, they rather sacrifice a "+" for a +4 flaming burst khopesh. with seeker, on a rapier, a seeker +6 would gain it 6x6x2 = +72 damage over 20 strikes while the khopesh will get 4x6x3 = +72 over 20 hits (seeker works only on crits). in a gist, a burst rapier will not get near a burst khopesh in terms of dps (racial enhancements not withstanding)

yours sincerely
your student

/sarcasm off

[Vhlad]

Aranticus, you have to factor in the racial enhancement, because that is what we are comparing.

elf rapier with melee attack II, melee damage II
vs human khopesh with 1 bonus higher str

+5 flaming burst, improved crit, greater focus, greater weapon spec, bloodstone, 32 str (rapier), 34 str (khopesh)

http://www.afterlifeguild.org/Thott/ddo/analyze.php?1label=flaming+burst+rapier&1bab=14&1atktype=1h&1spm=90&1phd=1d6%2B7&1phed=1d6&1phth=7&1phthreat=15-20%2Fx2&1phxcrit=1d10%2B12&1phefocus=on&1phespec=on&1ohd=1d4&1ohed=0&1ohth=0&1ohthreat=18-20%2Fx2&1ohxcrit=&1str=32&1dex=22&1pwr=on&1sneakpct=0&1sneakd=1d6&1cleavepct=0&2label=flaming+burst+khopesh&2bab=14&2atktype=1h&2spm=90&2phd=1d8%2B5&2phed=1d6&2phth=5&2phthreat=17-20%2Fx3&2phxcrit=2d10%2B18&2phefocus=on&2phespec=on&2ohd=&2ohed=&2ohth=&2ohthreat=&2ohxcrit=&2str=34&2dex=22&2pwr=on&2sneakpct=&2sneakd=&2cleavepct=&report=on&minac=10&maxac=70

Or, here's your version but with the enhancements and str bonus:
(i.e. +1 flaming burst, no bloodstone, 30str/32 str)

http://www.afterlifeguild.org/Thott/ddo/analyze.php?1label=flaming+burst+rapier&1bab=14&1atktype=1h&1spm=90&1phd=1d6%2B3&1phed=1d6&1phth=3&1phthreat=15-20%2Fx2&1phxcrit=1d10&1phefocus=on&1phespec=on&1ohd=1d4&1ohed=0&1ohth=0&1ohthreat=18-20%2Fx2&1ohxcrit=&1str=30&1dex=22&1pwr=on&1sneakpct=0&1sneakd=1d6&1cleavepct=0&2label=flaming+burst+khopesh&2bab=14&2atktype=1h&2spm=90&2phd=1d8%2B1&2phed=1d6&2phth=1&2phthreat=17-20%2Fx3&2phxcrit=2d10&2phefocus=on&2phespec=on&2ohd=&2ohed=&2ohth=&2ohthreat=&2ohxcrit=&2str=32&2dex=22&2pwr=on&2sneakpct=&2sneakd=&2cleavepct=&report=on&minac=10&maxac=70

The difference is almost exactly the same as with +5 holy weapon instead of burst, with/without bloodstone, etc. We're looking at a max 1-2 DPS difference between enhanced rapier / str khopesh.

Without looking at the program, I can show you why the critical effects on each weapon has the same bonus:
Khopesh: crits on 17, 18, 19, 20. That's a 4/20 chance to do 300% damage. 4/20 * 300 = 60
Rapier: crits on 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20. That's a 6/20 chance to do 200% damage. 6/20 * 200 = 60

Or:
1d10 = 5.5 avg damage
2d10 = 11 avg damage

Khopesh: 4/20 * 11 = 2.2
Rapier: 6/20 * 5.5 = 1.65

We're looking at a difference of 0.55 here.

[Aranticus]

Aranticus, you have to factor in the racial enhancement, because that is what we are comparing.

elf rapier with melee attack II, melee damage II
vs human khopesh with 1 bonus higher str

+5 flaming burst, improved crit, greater focus, greater weapon spec, bloodstone, 32 str (rapier), 34 str (khopesh)

http://www.afterlifeguild.org/Thott/ddo/analyze.php?1label=flaming+burst+rapier&1bab=14&1atktype=1h&1spm=90&1phd=1d6%2B7&1phed=1d6&1phth=7&1phthreat=15-20%2Fx2&1phxcrit=1d10%2B12&1phefocus=on&1phespec=on&1ohd=1d4&1ohed=0&1ohth=0&1ohthreat=18-20%2Fx2&1ohxcrit=&1str=32&1dex=22&1pwr=on&1sneakpct=0&1sneakd=1d6&1cleavepct=0&2label=flaming+burst+khopesh&2bab=14&2atktype=1h&2spm=90&2phd=1d8%2B5&2phed=1d6&2phth=5&2phthreat=17-20%2Fx3&2phxcrit=2d10%2B18&2phefocus=on&2phespec=on&2ohd=&2ohed=&2ohth=&2ohthreat=&2ohxcrit=&2str=34&2dex=22&2pwr=on&2sneakpct=&2sneakd=&2cleavepct=&report=on&minac=10&maxac=70

Or, here's your version but with the enhancements and str bonus:
(i.e. +1 flaming burst, no bloodstone, 30str/32 str)

http://www.afterlifeguild.org/Thott/ddo/analyze.php?1label=flaming+burst+rapier&1bab=14&1atktype=1h&1spm=90&1phd=1d6%2B3&1phed=1d6&1phth=3&1phthreat=15-20%2Fx2&1phxcrit=1d10&1phefocus=on&1phespec=on&1ohd=1d4&1ohed=0&1ohth=0&1ohthreat=18-20%2Fx2&1ohxcrit=&1str=30&1dex=22&1pwr=on&1sneakpct=0&1sneakd=1d6&1cleavepct=0&2label=flaming+burst+khopesh&2bab=14&2atktype=1h&2spm=90&2phd=1d8%2B1&2phed=1d6&2phth=1&2phthreat=17-20%2Fx3&2phxcrit=2d10&2phefocus=on&2phespec=on&2ohd=&2ohed=&2ohth=&2ohthreat=&2ohxcrit=&2str=32&2dex=22&2pwr=on&2sneakpct=&2sneakd=&2cleavepct=&report=on&minac=10&maxac=70

The difference is exactly the same as with +5 holy weapon instead of burst, with/without bloodstone, etc. We're looking at a max 1-2 DPS difference between enhanced rapier / str khopesh.

nice but i dun understand 1 thing... a rapier with enhancements will give more dps if the range of attacks is large but when we reach a roll of 17 or better to hit, then the khopesh should be larger due to the x3 crit multiplier (assuming crits are confirmed)

assumption 30str, +1 burst weapon, specialisation, gtr weapon specialisation
ie rapier on crit = (1d6+2+10+1+1+1)x2 + 1d6 +1d10 = 34 - 58
khopesh on crit = (1d8+10+1+1+1)x3 + 1d6 + 2d10 = 45 - 89

so the question is, why did the line not move when the ac is such that when you need a 17 and above to hit?

[Vhlad]

so the question is, why did the line not move when the ac is such that when you need a 17 and above to hit?

I don't know. But there's not a single mob in the game where I need 15 or above to hit...

I added a little more to my post too btw.

Edit: It could be a marginal difference too, like 1 DPS. If you assume the crit is confirmed always then the difference is greater. But we're looking at 4/20 to threat to do 300%, and then another 4/20 to see if we actually do it. Vs 4/20 200% threat + another 4/20 200% confirm. Seeker to hit effects would increase this difference at high AC range, but there's no way to put that in the program. But again, it is a moot point because mob AC simply doesnt go that high for properly speced melee. If you want to look at a toon with lower str and a lower base attack bonus, then this may be meaningful.
But in this case, the rapier also has +1 higher to hit, limiting this effect. And there's also the +5 to hit bonus on third attack, and +10 on 4th, further limiting this. The DDO melee code is really not fun to write. I do think there's something wrong with it though, as the average damage for a crit in the low AC range (for SoS, on my toon) is lower than the minimum damage I see for crits in-game. I'd love to see the source code ;p

[Aranticus]

I don't know. But there's not a single mob in the game where I need 15 or above to hit...

I added a little more to my post too btw.

Edit: It could be a marginal difference too, like 1 DPS. If you assume the crit is confirmed always then the difference is greater. But we're looking at 4/20 to threat to do 300%, and then another 4/20 to see if we actually do it. Vs 4/20 200% threat + another 4/20 200% confirm. Seeker to hit effects would increase this difference at high AC range, but there's no way to put that in the program. But again, it is a moot point because mob AC simply doesnt go that high for properly speced melee. If you want to look at a toon with lower str and a lower base attack bonus, then this may be meaningful.
But in this case, the rapier also has +1 higher to hit, limiting this effect. And there's also the +5 to hit bonus on third attack, and +10 on 4th, further limiting this. The DDO melee code is really not fun to write. I do think there's something wrong with it though, as the average damage for a crit in the low AC range (for SoS, on my toon) is lower than the minimum damage I see for crits in-game. I'd love to see the source code ;p

i agree with wat u say. some thing is wrong with that code. i run with a slash specced ftr with 32 str, bloodstone and a +1 holy burst khopesh of lesser dragon bane. that damage was what i did on the white dragon in gianthold tor.

based on calculations, it'd be (1d8+1+11+2+6)x3 for the base weapon damage = 63 - 84. no way i could hit 97 but its there. even funnier is with a heavy pick. my pally hit a crit of 225. how could any number when multiplied by 4 give an odd number? :eek:

edit: i dun recall a bard around me

[Protagoras]

i agree with wat u say. some thing is wrong with that code. i run with a slash specced ftr with 32 str, bloodstone and a +1 holy burst khopesh of lesser dragon bane. that damage was what i did on the white dragon in gianthold tor.

based on calculations, it'd be (1d8+1+11+2+6)x3 for the base weapon damage = 63 - 84. no way i could hit 97 but its there. even funnier is with a heavy pick. my pally hit a crit of 225. how could any number when multiplied by 4 give an odd number? :eek:

edit: i dun recall a bard around me

Well to be true to PnP the rule is you do not multiply by four but rather you roll 4 times. In that case you could get an odd number. It would not suprise me if DDO also rolls multiple times and adds rather than just multiplies by 4. It makes for more middling results and less Minimum and maximum crits.

[Aranticus]

Well to be true to PnP the rule is you do not multiply by four but rather you roll 4 times. In that case you could get an odd number. It would not suprise me if DDO also rolls multiple times and adds rather than just multiplies by 4. It makes for more middling results and less Minimum and maximum crits.

of its 1d6/x4 = 4d6 then its fine. but the other problem still exist.... where did i get 97 from when the max i calculated is 84 :confused:

[Gimpster]

EDIT:
Here's dual +5 flaming burst khopesh with all the TWF feats vs a SoS with all the THF feats (THF = 18-21 dmg every other attack from glancing blows.
That chart gives misleading results, because it makes the incorrect assumption that TWF can get 7 attacks in the same time it takes THF to get 4. Unfortunately TWF takes longer for a full attack than other styles do.

[Gimpster]

Why would a bonus to confirm crits have a larger benefit to the khopesh? Rapier = longer crit range = greater frequency at which seeker effect comes into play.
Why? Because a khopesh has more critical power than a rapier.

Multiply the threat range of the weapon times its critical multiplier-1 to see the critical power of a weapon.
Khopesh is 4 * (3-1) = 8
Rapier is 6 * (2-1) = 6
Sword is 4 * (2-1) = 4
Axe is 2 * (3-1) = 4

The higher the critical power of a weapon, the more it benefits from effects which either help you score a crit, or give additional damage scaled on the crit multiplier. That means Seeker and Shocking Burst both add more damage to a Khopesh than they do to a rapier.

If we were comparing sword vs axe, we could say the bigger range cancels out against the higher multiplier, because they both come out to the same product. (That's not 100% equivalent, but close enough). However for rapier vs khopesh, the latter has a clear edge.

[Gimpster]

i.e. vs a high AC mob, assume a roll of 16 is a miss. With a khopesh, it is a miss. With a rapier, it is a critical threat. Then a new roll is made with the seeker bonus to confirm, which could end up being a hit. Right?
Absolutely not. If a 16 won't hit the AC, it doesn't matter if your threat range is 20 or 12-20; that attack has missed and you get no more rolls until the next swing.

[Gimpster]

And with regard to confirming crit rolls after already rolling a threat, the benefit to each weapon is the same.
No, the benefit is not the same. An effect like Shock gives the same boost to any weapon because it just gives +1d6 damage on every hit (assuming your AB with all weapons is the same). But Seeker and Critical Accuracy enhancements don't work like that.

If I had a weapon that is 1d6 20/x2 and another 1d6 10-20/x3, would you say a +6 bonus to confirm crits benefits them both equally? Of course not. The first weapon only has a chance to crit 5% of the time, while the other could crit 50% of the time. In this example the seeker bonus is 10 times as good for the second weapon.

A similar thing happens between khopesh and rapier, but to a lesser magnitude.

[Talson]

"Absolutely not. If a 16 won't hit the AC, it doesn't matter if your threat range is 20 or 12-20; that attack has missed and you get no more rolls until the next swing."

Although once you start talking about insane AC MOBs that require a 19 or 20 just to get a hit it's time to consider switching to a vorpal rather than DPS... (Ponders back to the original TS drow)

[Vhlad]

Why? Because a khopesh has more critical power than a rapier.

Multiply the threat range of the weapon times its critical multiplier-1 to see the critical power of a weapon.
Khopesh is 4 * (3-1) = 8
Rapier is 6 * (2-1) = 6
Sword is 4 * (2-1) = 4
Axe is 2 * (3-1) = 4

The higher the critical power of a weapon, the more it benefits from effects which either help you score a crit, or give additional damage scaled on the crit multiplier. That means Seeker and Shocking Burst both add more damage to a Khopesh than they do to a rapier.

If we were comparing sword vs axe, we could say the bigger range cancels out against the higher multiplier, because they both come out to the same product. (That's not 100% equivalent, but close enough). However for rapier vs khopesh, the latter has a clear edge.

Wonderful, but if you read the rest of the thread before replying, you would see this:
Khopesh: crits on 17, 18, 19, 20. That's a 4/20 chance to do 300% damage. 4/20 * 300 = 60
Rapier: crits on 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20. That's a 6/20 chance to do 200% damage. 6/20 * 200 = 60

And you would also see that the other thing you mentioned was already talked about. It's only 3 pages. There is no good excuse.

[Gimpster]

Wonderful, but if you read the rest of the thread before replying, you would see this:
Khopesh: crits on 17, 18, 19, 20. That's a 4/20 chance to do 300% damage. 4/20 * 300 = 60
Rapier: crits on 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20. That's a 6/20 chance to do 200% damage. 6/20 * 200 = 60
Wrong. I've already explained the math above, but I'll spell it out in more detail.

Khopesh crits 17-20 which is 4/20. True. But khopesh does NOT get 300% damage from crits. It gets +200% damage, which is different. The rapier crits 15-20 for a range of 6 and gets +100% damage. The correct comparison is between 4/20 * 200 and 6/20 * 100, which comes to 40 for the khopesh and 30 for the rapier- so the khopesh gets more benefit from Seeker (or from Shocking Burst or similar).

We can more clearly see why your math is wrong if we consider a longsword and battleaxe, which everyone knows have virtually identical crit power. According to your arithmetic, a longsword is 4/20 * 200% = 40 and a battleaxe is 2/20 * 300% = 30. That makes it seem like Seeker gives a greater benefit to swords than to axes, which is false. In reality, the sword is 4 * (2-1)=4 and the axe is 2 *(3-1)=4, so it works out the same.

I'll demonstrate the difference one more time. If I make 20 attacks and roll every number on the attack die, a rapier, khopesh, and sword, and axe have the chance to do this much damage if all crits are confirmed:

Roll, Rapier, Khopesh, Longsword, Battleaxe
1, 0, 0, 0, 0
2, 1, 1, 1, 1
3, 1, 1, 1, 1
4, 1, 1, 1, 1
5, 1, 1, 1, 1
6, 1, 1, 1, 1
7, 1, 1, 1, 1
8, 1, 1, 1, 1
9, 1, 1, 1, 1
10, 1, 1, 1, 1
11, 1, 1, 1, 1
12, 1, 1, 1, 1
13, 1, 1, 1, 1
14, 1, 1, 1, 1
15, 2, 1, 1, 1
16, 2, 1, 1, 1
17, 2, 3, 2, 1
18, 2, 3, 2, 1
19, 2, 3, 2, 3
20, 2, 3, 2, 3
tot 25, 27, 23, 23

Add up each column and you get rapier = 25, khopesh = 27, longsword = 23, and battleaxe = 23. Thus the khopesh gets more benefit from any effect that either makes it easier to confirm a crit, or which gives scaled extra damage on crits.

[Gimpster]

Although once you start talking about insane AC MOBs that require a 19 or 20 just to get a hit it's time to consider switching to a vorpal rather than DPS... (Ponders back to the original TS drow)
That is false- or at best, it's only true if we assume the character has a Bloodstone, Fighter's Critical Accuracy, or another way to get a bonus confirming critical hits. In the absence of such a bonus, there is no benefit to using vorpal on a high AC monster.


Indeed, it is a monster's hitpoints which should drive the choice of whether to fight them with a vorpal or a high-damaging weapon. To decide whether you should be using a vorpal, just count the number of hits you need to kill the monster (hits, not attacks). If it's more than 20, a vorpal is better, but otherwise stick to damage.


Although once you start talking about insane AC MOBs that require a 19 or 20 just to get a hit it's time to consider switching to a vorpal rather than DPS... (Ponders back to the original TS drow)
What I said above isn't 100% true. There actually is a minor way that the monster's AC influences whether or not a vorpal weapon would be better than a damaging weapon, but it is backwards from what you said. Vorpal weapons are hard to find, and whatever vorpal you have almost certainly is not +5. That means it has a lower attack bonus than the other weapons you could be using, so vorpal on a high-AC monster is even less likely to be a good idea.

[Gimpster]

nice but i dun understand 1 thing... a rapier with enhancements will give more dps if the range of attacks is large but when we reach a roll of 17 or better to hit, then the khopesh should be larger due to the x3 crit multiplier (assuming crits are confirmed)
That would be true if the chart was correctly including the benefit of using the Bloodstone trinket. But as I mentioned, that web program has no way to handle the bonus of a Bloodstone, so it makes the khopesh look worse than it actually is.

[Creeper]

Gimpster:
Thus the khopesh gets more benefit from any effect that either makes it easier to confirm a crit, or which gives scaled extra damage on crits.


Yup! What he said!
In my own simple non mathematical way I crudely calculate crits thusly:

x3 = 2 extra hits
4/20
So if you hit something 20 times and crit 4 times you have hit it 28 times.

x2 = 1 extra hits
6/20
So if you hit something 20 times and crit 6 times you have hit it 26 times.

X4 = 3 extra hits
2/20
So if you hit something 20 times and crit 2 times you have hit it 26 times.

That’s the Idiot’s guide to making some sense out of all this crazy talk. In a pinch you can use this to see what weapons have the highest crit damage power. In short what Gimpster is saying is basically (In the words of Yoda.) "-2 threat range does not a x3 modifier equal."

[Vaern]

Nobody ever said that 2 additional crit range = a x3 crit modifier. Its more a stacking affect. And additional +1 to hit as well as 2 additional crit range brings it more on par. I personally feel that the khopesh, at best, holds a slight numerical advantage on most character builds that aren't optimized. However once you get into elf/drow specced for the rapier, saying that the khopesh is a superior weapon is highly situational, stemming, in large part from players that see the Khopesh giving them bigger red numbers and assume that its a much more powerful weapon. Well, overall, its not. There are situations where it excels, just as there are situations where the rapier excels.

-Vaern

[Creeper]

There are situations where it excels, just as there are situations where the rapier excels.


Right. That is what the entire thread has been about thus far. I agree, but the Khopesh is ahead of the Rapier even with the +2 +2, and as Gimpster points out the more potential we have to increase crit effects(like barb crit and weapon master threat mods, and seeker items, and bursting effects.) The Khopesh (Or heavy pick) becomes even more powerful than the rapier. Because as we all agree as far as damage -2 threat x2 - does not equal x3. Only if we are calculating effects that only work on a crit is the rapier superior. Adding any other effect the Khopesh will always stay on top. That is what the thread is all about.

[EdsanDarkbane]

to settle a question like this one could just find the roof dps for the game with one weapon and alter the weapon (provided its the same type i.e. 2h 1h)
and then u could add bennies afterwards. weapons are probably not very different dps wise. and besides we use dice;)

[Vhlad]

Khopesh crits 17-20 which is 4/20. True. But khopesh does NOT get 300% damage from crits. It gets +200% damage, which is different. The rapier crits 15-20 for a range of 6 and gets +100% damage.

Don't be silly. I did not mean (nor write) +300% and +200%. I mean't and wrote 300% and 200%. (i.e. normal 100% damage x 3 for khopesh and normal 100% damage x 2 for rapier).


We can more clearly see why your math is wrong if we consider a longsword and battleaxe, which everyone knows have virtually identical crit power. According to your arithmetic, a longsword is 4/20 * 200% = 40 and a battleaxe is 2/20 * 300% = 30. That makes it seem like Seeker gives a greater benefit to swords than to axes, which is false. In reality, the sword is 4 * (2-1)=4 and the axe is 2 *(3-1)=4, so it works out the same.

Here's +5 longsword vs +5 battleaxe:
http://www.afterlifeguild.org/Thott/ddo/analyze.php?1label=longsword&1bab=14&1atktype=1h&1spm=90&1phd=1d8%2B5&1phed=&1phth=5&1phthreat=19-20%2Fx2&1phxcrit=&1phefocus=on&1phespec=on&1phcrit=on&1ohd=&1ohed=&1ohth=&1ohthreat=&1ohxcrit=&1str=32&1dex=22&1pwr=on&1sneakpct=&1sneakd=&1cleavepct=&2label=battleaxe&2bab=14&2atktype=1h&2spm=90&2phd=1d8%2B5&2phed=&2phth=5&2phthreat=20%2Fx3&2phxcrit=&2phefocus=on&2phespec=on&2phcrit=on&2ohd=&2ohed=&2ohth=&2ohthreat=&2ohxcrit=&2str=32&2dex=22&2pwr=on&2sneakpct=&2sneakd=&2cleavepct=&report=on&minac=10&maxac=70

And here's +5 flaming burst longsword vs +5 flaming burst battleaxe, each with bloodstone:
http://www.afterlifeguild.org/Thott/ddo/analyze.php?1label=longsword&1bab=14&1atktype=1h&1spm=90&1phd=1d8%2B5&1phed=1d6&1phth=5&1phthreat=19-20%2Fx2&1phxcrit=1d10%2B12&1phefocus=on&1phespec=on&1phcrit=on&1ohd=&1ohed=&1ohth=&1ohthreat=&1ohxcrit=&1str=32&1dex=22&1pwr=on&1sneakpct=&1sneakd=&1cleavepct=&2label=battleaxe&2bab=14&2atktype=1h&2spm=90&2phd=1d8%2B5&2phed=1d6&2phth=5&2phthreat=20%2Fx3&2phxcrit=2d10%2B18&2phefocus=on&2phespec=on&2phcrit=on&2ohd=&2ohed=&2ohth=&2ohthreat=&2ohxcrit=&2str=32&2dex=22&2pwr=on&2sneakpct=&2sneakd=&2cleavepct=&report=on&minac=10&maxac=70

Doesn't appear to work out the same.


I'll demonstrate the difference one more time. If I make 20 attacks and roll every number on the attack die, a rapier, khopesh, and sword, and axe have the chance to do this much damage if all crits are confirmed:

Roll, Rapier, Khopesh, Longsword, Battleaxe
1, 0, 0, 0, 0
2, 1, 1, 1, 1
3, 1, 1, 1, 1
4, 1, 1, 1, 1
5, 1, 1, 1, 1
6, 1, 1, 1, 1
7, 1, 1, 1, 1
8, 1, 1, 1, 1
9, 1, 1, 1, 1
10, 1, 1, 1, 1
11, 1, 1, 1, 1
12, 1, 1, 1, 1
13, 1, 1, 1, 1
14, 1, 1, 1, 1
15, 2, 1, 1, 1
16, 2, 1, 1, 1
17, 2, 3, 2, 1
18, 2, 3, 2, 1
19, 2, 3, 2, 3
20, 2, 3, 2, 3
tot 25, 27, 23, 23

Add up each column and you get rapier = 25, khopesh = 27, longsword = 23, and battleaxe = 23. Thus the khopesh gets more benefit from any effect that either makes it easier to confirm a crit, or which gives scaled extra damage on crits.

Look at the crit range only for crit specific effects.

15, 2
16, 2
17, 2, 3, 2
18, 2, 3, 2
19, 2, 3, 2, 3
20, 2, 3, 2, 3

Total: 12, 12, 8, 6

You don't add the rest of the numbers. That's why longsword > battleaxe and rapier and khopesh end up being the same.

** correction here** It is dependent on the critical effect. Longsword > battleaxe for bloodstone and holy burst. They are the same for flaming burst & thundering however (see below). Dependancies for rapier/khopesh are in another post below.

Here's a 1d8 rapier vs a 1d8 khopesh:
http://www.afterlifeguild.org/Thott/ddo/analyze.php?1label=rapier&1bab=14&1atktype=1h&1spm=90&1phd=1d8%2B5&1phed=&1phth=5&1phthreat=15-20%2Fx2&1phxcrit=&1phefocus=on&1phespec=on&1ohd=1d4&1ohed=0&1ohth=0&1ohthreat=18-20%2Fx2&1ohxcrit=&1str=32&1dex=22&1pwr=on&1sneakpct=0&1sneakd=1d6&1cleavepct=0&2label=khopesh&2bab=14&2atktype=1h&2spm=90&2phd=1d8%2B5&2phed=&2phth=5&2phthreat=17-20%2Fx3&2phxcrit=&2phefocus=on&2phespec=on&2ohd=&2ohed=&2ohth=&2ohthreat=&2ohxcrit=&2str=32&2dex=22&2pwr=on&2sneakpct=&2sneakd=&2cleavepct=&report=on&minac=10&maxac=70

And here's a +5 flaming burst khopesh and a +5 flaming burst 1d8 rapier, each with bloodstone:
http://www.afterlifeguild.org/Thott/ddo/analyze.php?1label=rapier&1bab=14&1atktype=1h&1spm=90&1phd=1d8%2B5&1phed=1d6&1phth=5&1phthreat=15-20%2Fx2&1phxcrit=1d10%2B12&1phefocus=on&1phespec=on&1ohd=1d4&1ohed=0&1ohth=0&1ohthreat=18-20%2Fx2&1ohxcrit=&1str=32&1dex=22&1pwr=on&1sneakpct=0&1sneakd=1d6&1cleavepct=0&2label=khopesh&2bab=14&2atktype=1h&2spm=90&2phd=1d8%2B5&2phed=1d6&2phth=5&2phthreat=17-20%2Fx3&2phxcrit=2d10%2B18&2phefocus=on&2phespec=on&2ohd=&2ohed=&2ohth=&2ohthreat=&2ohxcrit=&2str=32&2dex=22&2pwr=on&2sneakpct=&2sneakd=&2cleavepct=&report=on&minac=10&maxac=70

[Gimpster]

Don't be silly. I did not mean (nor write) +300% and +200%. I mean't and wrote 300% and 200%.
Oh, fine, my mistake. I assumed you had wanted to use numbers that had some relationship to the damage output of the weapons.


Doesn't appear to work out the same.
Yes, in that chart it doesn't appear to. So you shouldn't rely on buggy tools and bad inputs.


You don't add the rest of the numbers. That's why longsword > battleaxe and rapier and khopesh end up being the same.
Well, you should add up the rest of the numbers, if you wanted to know how much damage a DDO character would get from the various weapons. Really, your outcomes are just painfully wrong here. You should just sit down and do the math yourself until you figure out that a longsword and battleaxe do virtually the same damage. (And technically, if you get it down accurately enough to see a difference, the axe does a little more).


And here's a +5 flaming burst khopesh and a +5 flaming burst 1d8 rapier, each with bloodstone
As I've already explained 3 times, and other people have explained as well, those charts do not accurately represent the damage the weapons in question would output.


Again, heh, the same.
Someday you'll look back at this and cringe.

[Gimpster]

Only if we are calculating effects that only work on a crit is the rapier superior. Adding any other effect the Khopesh will always stay on top. That is what the thread is all about.
The rapier is superior if you've got an effect that isn't scaled by the weapon's critical multiplier. That includes things like Puncturing and Banishing. But something like Shocking Burst is stronger when coming from a khopesh, which overcomes the smaller threat range.

Note: as an unusual special case, the Holy Burst effect is an in-between partially scaling bonus. It does 3d6 from a rapier and 4d6 from a khopesh, so although the damage is higher on a khopesh, it's not as much higher as you'd hope for from a 3x multiplier.

[Gimpster]

You don't add the rest of the numbers. That's why longsword > battleaxe and rapier and khopesh end up being the same.
Ok, you've got some basic problem in computing the damage D&D weapons can do. To help you out, I will step through a simple comparison between the longsword and battleaxe, which are more fundamental weapons than the rapier/khopesh.

Assume a +0 weapon held by a character with 14 strength, and every d8 comes up an 8 (instead of the real average of 4.5). The longsword is 1d8 19-20/x2 and the battleaxe is 1d8 20/x3. For even more simplicity, this character doesn't have improved crit, and the target AC is assumed so low an attack roll of 2 hits.

First the axe. Like all weapons, it does 0 damage when you roll a 1, and then 10 damage for each roll in 2-19, or 18*10=180. Rolling a 20 gives you 10 damage to start with, and then an extra 10*(3-1)=20 if the crit is confirmed. There's only a 5% chance of failing to confirm, so the total damage across 20 attack rolls is 190+20*0.95=209.

Then the sword. Aside from critical hits, it's identical to the axe, so rolling from 1-18 gives you 170 damage total. On a 19 you do the 10 normal damage and have a 95% chance of getting an additional 10*(2-1)=10 damage, bringing it to 189.5. Rolling 20 adds as much damage as 19 did, or another 19.5 damage, which is 209 total.

The same exact total as the battleaxe. Those weapons do the same damage, so any chart program which claims otherwise is buggy. Or maybe you don't believe me, and think the sword is better at some other AC. So let's say the AC is high enough so you need to roll an 11 to hit, instead of just a 2.

That means both weapons get 0 damage from 1-10. Then from 11-19 the axe gets 9*10=90. On the 20, it has 10 base plus a 50% chance of confirming a crit for an extra 10*(3-1)=20. 90+10+(20*0.5)=110.

A sword also gets 0 from 1-10, and then 80 from 11-18. On a 19 it gets 10 plus 50% chance of 10*(2-1)=10, adding 15 to the total, for 95. As before, a 20 adds as much damage as 19, for 95+15=110. Once again, identical. The same outcome at two very different ACs.

In fact, it's a closed equation and identical at all ACs, except for when you only hit on a natural 20. In that case, the axe does 10 base + a 5% chance of 20 more, equalling 10+20*0.05=11. On a 20, the sword does 10+10*0.05=10.5 damage... very slightly less, because its crit multiplier is lower. So except when the to-hit number reaches the threat range and wastes part of the sword's bigger threat range, two weapons with identical critical power and damage-dice does identical damage. Or when the AC does impinge on the threat range, then the weapon with a higher critical multiplier wins.

If you don't agree with my math, feel free to point out the error.

[Gimpster]

Look at the crit range only.
15, 2
16, 2
17, 2, 3, 2
18, 2, 3, 2
19, 2, 3, 2, 3
20, 2, 3, 2, 3
Total: 12, 12, 8, 6
You don't add the rest of the numbers.
There is no justification not to add up the other numbers. The chart as you draw it makes it seem like the weapons do ZERO damage on a non-crit, where you have all the blanks.

To get a sensible result, you either must add up the entire list of all possible attack rolls from 1-20, or you must subtract 1 from each damage so that the rolls below the threat range come down to 1-1=0. To do one and not the other is self-contradictory.

[Thott]

My apologies to Vhlad/Sair.

Adding extra damage on crit introduced a bug into the crit calculation code.

A section of code that was threatmult*damage in the graph code was replaced with code that used a new value calculated in the analyze module that included any extra damage on crit the weapon produced. Unfortunately, the threatmult in that section of code had previously been reduced by one to factor out base weapon damage; in other words, it wasn't calculating the total damage done by crits, it was calculating the extra damage produced by crits. Thus the base damage was essentially counted twice in the crit range, which made longswords graph higher than axes.

Please don't blame Vhald/Sair for this. He wasn't saying that his analysis shows that longswords are better, he was saying that my analysis (through the tool) shows that longswords are better. He was absolutely right. I, however, was wrong :).

The really surprising thing is nobody emailed me about this before now. Please, if you see any bugs in this tool, let me know and I'll fix them. It's no good if it's not accurate.

--Thott

[Vhlad]

There is no justification not to add up the other numbers.

The difference is looking at critical only damage and critical effects, which was what the whole bloodstone thing was about.

The rapier and khopesh critical effects/damage is the same.
i.e.
6/20 * 2 = 4/20 * 3
The difference is in non-critical effects/damage (i.e. 13/20 * 1 for rapier and 15/20 * 1 for khopesh).

Maybe I wasn't clear enough, but that's why I don't think your 25, 27, 23, 23 chart proves khopesh gets more benefit from crit effects. But maybe I'm wrong!

Edit:
OK. If you go back and re-examine all the other linked analysis, they have been automatically updated when the code was changed. Assuming there's no other errors in the code...
Comparing again the +5 rapier vs +5 khopesh and the +5 flaming burst bloodstone rapier vs +5 flaming burst bloodstone khopesh, you can see that the shape and differences in the curves is not really affected by critical effects (note: in the scale on the DPS axis, the distance between every 5 DPS is different, accounting for visual stretching - this makes it a little difficult to see what's going on).
Then, comparing the longsword and battleaxe, you can see that the longsword and battleaxe lines (blue and orange) flip. The longsword DPS increases (slightly) with critical effects, which is consistent with what you find when looking at the critical only damage.

[Creeper]

Maybe I wasn't clear enough, but that's why I don't think your 25, 27, 23, 23 chart proves khopesh gets more benefit from crit effects. But maybe I'm wrong!

What would we have to do to prove that they do get more benefit? I mean besides mathematically since that has been done several times.

[Vhlad]

What would we have to do to prove that they do get more benefit? I mean besides mathematically since that has been done several times.

The provided analysis grouped non-critical effects/damage with critical effects/damage, analysed them together, and then concluded that critical effects khopesh > critical effects rapier. The difference in non-critical effects/damage (where khopesh > rapier) results in the questioning of the provided analysis being valid, and is not deserving of sarcasm or attitude.

[Creeper]

Sorry, but i was being totally serious.

This bug fix changed the khopesh vs. SOS graph quite a bit as well...

[Gimpster]

The provided analysis grouped non-critical effects/damage with critical effects/damage, analysed them together, and then concluded that critical effects khopesh > critical effects rapier.
No, it did not. It is you who insist on grouping critical and non-critical damage, and then claiming it's all critical damage. You keep on treating the khopesh as if it has 300% crits, even though we've explained it really has +200% crits. It's been explained more times than I care to count, but I'll try one more:

"Critical Power" means the benefit a certain weapon gets from critical hits, and bonuses which scale with critical hits.

Your method computes Critical Power as Threat Range * Crit Mult, which produces
Rapier = 6*2 = 12
Khopesh = 4*3 = 12
Longsword = 4*2 = 8
Battleaxe = 2*3 = 6

But that's wrong. The correct way to get Critical Power is Threat Range * (Crit Mult -1), or
Rapier = 6*1 = 6
Khopesh = 4*2 = 8
Longsword = 4*1 = 4
Battleaxe = 2*2 = 4

These correct results show that the khopesh has more critical power than the rapier, and that swords and axes are equal. The difference is that you are using (Crit Mult) when you should be using (Crit Mult -1). Why do we need to subtract 1 to get the right answer? Because every weapon gets at least 1x damage on a roll of 15-20, regardless of whether or not the critical hit is confirmed.

An attack roll of 19 with a Khopesh gives you 1x as a base, and then an additional 2x if you successfully confirm the crit. All weapons have a baseline of 1x damage, so you must count the critical power as only the damage above that starting point.

[Vaern]

Read carefully Gimp,
On a NORMAL HIT a khopesh and rapier both do 100% damage.
On a CRITICAL HIT a khopesh does 300% damage/rapier does 200% damage.

The way that it is being said, is neither that the khopesh does an ADDITIONAL 300% nor that the rapier does an ADDITIONAL 200%.

You're saying the khopesh does an EXTRA 200% and the rapier does an EXTRA 100%.

Both are saying the same thing here, its an actual arguement being weighted down by semantics.

-Vaern

[EdsanDarkbane]

I soloed this thread easily:D

[Gimpster]

Read carefully Gimp
No, you read more carefully.


Both are saying the same thing here, its an actual arguement being weighted down by semantics.
No, there is a substantial difference. Interpreting a khopesh as having 300% crits is correct for some uses but wrong in others. But treating it as +200% is correct all the time.

If you choose to look at a khopesh as getting 300% on a crit instead instead of +200% damage, you will reach an incorrect conclusion regarding which weapon benefits more from an effect that increases the power of crits.

For example, suppose we want to know how much adding Thundering will benefit a weaopn. Thundering give you an extra 1d8 from a rapier and 2d8 from a khopesh. That is, the benefit from thundering = 1d8 * (Crit Mult -1). Notice that we must use Crit Mult -1 instead of Crit Mult to properly judge how much damage a weapon gains from crit effects.

The ratio of 2d8/1d8 = 2, just like +200%/+100% = 2. If you instead used 300%/200% as the critical power ratio between the two weapons, you'd get 1.5, which is simply incorrect.

[Vaern]

Gimp,
Honestly, who uses thundering? This is more or less an endgame discussion, is it not? Who, at level 14, actively seeks out thundering?

If you want to **** around and use worthless affect such as "Thundering" then that is your perogative.

Let's use a weapon affect that people actually seek out and use.

When holy burst comes into affect, the Khopesh falls behind the rapier.

2d6 damage from holy, additional 3d6 on a crit, for BOTH weapons.

That means the additional damage dealt as a result of a crit it 3d6 for both weapons. You're not going to beat that with affects currently in the game.

Using simple math
Khopesh 4*3d6 = 12d6
Rapier 6*3d6 = 18d6
12d6<18d6 = khopesh<rapier
In this scenerio

Which also means, that for this calculation, which is situational, your aforementioned ratio calculation is worthless.

I'd rather have holy burst over thundering, regardless of which weapon.

Thanks for playing!
-V

[Vaern]

And as far as the +100%, +200% or 200% 300% its bloody semantics.

On a crit, you still. do. base. damage.

So whether you want to say
100% + 100% and 100% + 200%
OR
200% and 300%
there is NO DIFFERENCE

Just adjust your mathmatics accordingly.

-V

[Jaysensen]

In case some people are unclear...

Plus 100% means double. Plus 200% means triple. Thats the mathematical definition of percent.


If I spend half the amount of time reading this thread
that is decreasing the amount of time I spend by 50%.

If I spend twice the amount of time reading this thread
that is increasing the amount of time I spend by 100%.

If I spend three times the amount of time reading this thread
that is increasing the amount of time I spend by 200%.

[Vhlad]

No, it did not. It is you who insist on grouping critical and non-critical damage, and then claiming it's all critical damage. You keep on treating the khopesh as if it has 300% crits, even though we've explained it really has +200% crits. It's been explained more times than I care to count, but I'll try one more:

"Critical Power" means the benefit a certain weapon gets from critical hits, and bonuses which scale with critical hits.

Your method computes Critical Power as Threat Range * Crit Mult, which produces
Rapier = 6*2 = 12
Khopesh = 4*3 = 12
Longsword = 4*2 = 8
Battleaxe = 2*3 = 6

But that's wrong. The correct way to get Critical Power is Threat Range * (Crit Mult -1), or
Rapier = 6*1 = 6
Khopesh = 4*2 = 8
Longsword = 4*1 = 4
Battleaxe = 2*2 = 4

These correct results show that the khopesh has more critical power than the rapier, and that swords and axes are equal. The difference is that you are using (Crit Mult) when you should be using (Crit Mult -1). Why do we need to subtract 1 to get the right answer? Because every weapon gets at least 1x damage on a roll of 15-20, regardless of whether or not the critical hit is confirmed.

An attack roll of 19 with a Khopesh gives you 1x as a base, and then an additional 2x if you successfully confirm the crit. All weapons have a baseline of 1x damage, so you must count the critical power as only the damage above that starting point.

I know I have made mistakes in this thread, but your critical power analysis and the conclusions you derive from it is flawed. I will attempt to outline how, and I will use the chart example you gave.



If I make 20 attacks and roll every number on the attack die, a rapier, khopesh, and sword, and axe have the chance to do this much damage if all crits are confirmed:

Roll, Rapier, Khopesh, Longsword, Battleaxe
1, 0, 0, 0, 0
2, 1, 1, 1, 1
3, 1, 1, 1, 1
4, 1, 1, 1, 1
5, 1, 1, 1, 1
6, 1, 1, 1, 1
7, 1, 1, 1, 1
8, 1, 1, 1, 1
9, 1, 1, 1, 1
10, 1, 1, 1, 1
11, 1, 1, 1, 1
12, 1, 1, 1, 1
13, 1, 1, 1, 1
14, 1, 1, 1, 1
15, 2, 1, 1, 1
16, 2, 1, 1, 1
17, 2, 3, 2, 1
18, 2, 3, 2, 1
19, 2, 3, 2, 3
20, 2, 3, 2, 3
tot 25, 27, 23, 23

Add up each column and you get rapier = 25, khopesh = 27, longsword = 23, and battleaxe = 23. Thus the khopesh gets more benefit from any effect that either makes it easier to confirm a crit, or which gives scaled extra damage on crits.

Look carefully at the conclusion, and then look at the numbers. Why does rapier = 25 and khopesh = 27? Because khopesh has two more 1's, and a 1 is not representative of a critical effect.
The base critical contribution to damage from the khopesh and the rapier is the same:
Raper: 2+2+2+2+2+2 = 12
Khopesh: 3+3+3+3 = 12

The difference is in non critical effects (and in the nature of the critical effects themselves).
Rapier: 0+1+1+1+1+1+1+1+1+1+1+1+1+1 = 13
Khopesh: 0+1+1+1+1+1+1+1+1+1+1+1+1+1+1+1 = 15

With the addition of a critical effect the 1's do not change. That is why rapier and khopesh would derive the same benefit from bloodstone, IF their base damage was the same, AND that is why I was omitting the 1's at the very beginning when I said a +5 holy rapier and +5 holy khopesh benefit equally from bloodstone.

Other critical effects are different, and the benefit derived depends on the nature of the critical effect. To say khopesh benefits more than a rapier from ALL critical effects because it has more "critical power" (and I have no idea where you got that term from) is incorrect.

In this thread we are examining a drow/elf enhanced rapier (1d6+2) vs a human wielding khopesh with 1 higher str bonus (1d8+1). In this case the average damage of each weapon is 5.5 (the same), so the benefit from base critical contribution to damage is the same. However, with increased str bonus, the khopesh benefits more than a rapier because the str bonus effects those two extra 1's.

To illustrate these points, I will use thundering, bloodstone, and holy burst. I will look at these via chart format, and I will discuss the results at the end. In each case, the critical effect is applied to a weapon of base damage = B (which is the same for the rapier and khopesh, as outlined in the scenario by the OP).

Thundering: 1d8 on a crit if weapon is x2, and 2d8 if it is x3

1: 0, 0
2: B, B
3: B, B
4: B, B
5: B, B
6: B, B
7: B, B
8: B, B
9: B, B
10: B, B
11: B, B
12: B, B
13: B, B
14: B, B
15: 2B+1d8, B
16: 2B+1d8, B
17: 2B+1d8, 3B+2d8
18: 2B+1d8, 3B+2d8
19: 2B+1d8, 3B+2d8
20: 2B+1d8, 3B+2d8

Adding this up:
Rapier: 25B + 6d8
Khopesh: 27B + 8d8

Bloodstone: +12 on a crit if weapon is x2, and +18 if it is x3

1: 0, 0
2: B, B
3: B, B
4: B, B
5: B, B
6: B, B
7: B, B
8: B, B
9: B, B
10: B, B
11: B, B
12: B, B
13: B, B
14: B, B
15: 2B+12, B
16: 2B+12, B
17: 2B+12, 3B+18
18: 2B+12, 3B+18
19: 2B+12, 3B+18
20: 2B+12, 3B+18

Adding this up:
Rapier: 25B + 72
Khopesh: 27B + 72

Holy burst: 3d6 on a crit

1: 0, 0
2: B, B
3: B, B
4: B, B
5: B, B
6: B, B
7: B, B
8: B, B
9: B, B
10: B, B
11: B, B
12: B, B
13: B, B
14: B, B
15: 2B+3d6, B
16: 2B+3d6, B
17: 2B+3d6, 3B+3d6
18: 2B+3d6, 3B+3d6
19: 2B+3d6, 3B+3d6
20: 2B+3d6, 3B+3d6

Adding this up:
Rapier: 25B + 18d6
Khopesh: 27B + 12d6

It can be seen that:
Thundering has a greater benefit to khopesh
Bloodstone (seeker +6) benefits rapier and khopesh equally
Holy burst has a greater benefit to rapier

Therefore, for example, using the melee damage tool on a +5 holy rapier with melee attack II, melee damage II, and bloodstone vs a +5 holy khopesh with 1 higher str bonus and bloodstone is a valid comparison, because in each case the benefit from bloodstone (including the seeker+6 to-hit bonus) is the same. This was the ORIGINAL comparison on page 1, to which you replied:


Since the bloodstone gives a greater benefit to khopeshes than to rapiers, that means your charts make the rapier look better than it actually is.

Hopefully, this is sufficient to show that the "critical power" of a weapon as you are defining it has little meaning. The benefit is dependant on the nature of the critical effect. Any critical effect that is 3/2 ratio (i.e. 1.5) benefits the khopesh and rapier equally (i.e. 18/12 bloodstone). Any critical effect that has a larger ratio benefits the khopesh more (i.e. 2/1 thundering). Any critical effect with a lower ratio benefits the rapier more (i.e. 1/1 holy burst).

[Aranticus]

Holy burst: 3d6 on a crit

1: 0, 0
2: B, B
3: B, B
4: B, B
5: B, B
6: B, B
7: B, B
8: B, B
9: B, B
10: B, B
11: B, B
12: B, B
13: B, B
14: B, B
15: 2B+3d6, B
16: 2B+3d6, B
17: 2B+3d6, 3B+3d6
18: 2B+3d6, 3B+3d6
19: 2B+3d6, 3B+3d6
20: 2B+3d6, 3B+3d6

Adding this up:
Rapier: 25B + 18d6
Khopesh: 27B + 12d6

It can be seen that:
Thundering has a greater benefit to khopesh
Bloodstone (seeker +6) benefits rapier and khopesh equally
Holy burst has a greater benefit to rapier

i'm afraid you made a mistake here. holy burst is exactly the same as other alignment burst weapons. its actually 3d6 for a x2, 4d6 for a x3 and 5d6 for a x4

i have a holy burst light pick, rapier and khopesh. the damages from the burst is light pick>khopesh> rapier. i've seen light pick doing 20+ burst dmg, the khopesh doing 15+ but never 20. thus so as to say. there IS a mistake in the description of the ability

[Gimpster]

Honestly, who uses thundering? This is more or less an endgame discussion, is it not? Who, at level 14, actively seeks out thundering?
Thundering is just a simple example. At end-game you could replace it with Force Burst or something else. The effect is equivalent for anything that scales with the Critical Power.


When holy burst comes into affect, the Khopesh falls behind the rapier.
2d6 damage from holy, additional 3d6 on a crit, for BOTH weapons.
Your understanding of the mechanics of Holy Burst is incorrect- the khopesh gets more damage from it. However, as I already explained above, Holy Burst does give a larger benefit to rapiers than khopeshes, because the Burst doesn't scale proportionate to the Crit Mult -1.

[Vhlad]

i'm afraid you made a mistake here. holy burst is exactly the same as other alignment burst weapons. its actually 3d6 for a x2, 4d6 for a x3 and 5d6 for a x4

i have a holy burst light pick, rapier and khopesh. the damages from the burst is light pick>khopesh> rapier. i've seen light pick doing 20+ burst dmg, the khopesh doing 15+ but never 20. thus so as to say. there IS a mistake in the description of the ability

OK. I was wondering about that. Thanks. The ratio is still lower than 1.5 though (it's 1.333333), so holy burst still benefits the rapier more.

rapier: 6* 3d6 = 18d6
khopesh 4* 4d6 = 16d6

[Vaern]

I apologize if my number was incorrect on the holy burst, I was using a bow, and I had assumed it was the same, might be a bugged bow, might be correct, and I read it wrong. I'm not positive.

As far as "force burst", as I haven't seen it yet, and don't know the statistics from it, I will withhold analysis. If you know what its going to do exacctly, please, enlighten us. But I doubt you're the expert.

If critical trends continue in the same fashion as holy burst and up the damage dice from d6 to a d8, that just increases the benefit toward the rapier. But once again, I'm not the expert, so I'm sure that time will tell.

Saying that holy burst benefits the khopesh more than the rapier is, at best, uninformed, and at worst, a downright lie. In no world does 16d6 = 18d6 OVER TIME. ( I added the over time because I'm positive you'd put something like, max damage khopesh hit against min damage rapier hit )


-V

[Vhlad]

Actually you know what, the ratio of the confirm crit bonus from seeker does not scale. It's 1/1 (i.e. same +confirm for khopesh and rapier). "Critical power" can only properly predict the benefit of the seeker item under specific circumstances (which, for example, could depend on the difference between your to-hit and target AC or on other critical effects that you may be combining it with).

[Gimpster]

I know I have made mistakes in this thread, but your critical power analysis and the conclusions you derive from it is flawed.
No, it is not flawed. You are making another mistake.

In particular, your understanding of the effects of Holy Burst and Bloodstone is simply wrong. The Bloodstone has more benefits than you attribute to it- not only does it increase the damage on a crit, but also the chance of a crit being confirmed at all. You also missed the definition of Critical Power, which I already supplied.

Rather than spell it all out again, I'll just give some summary numbers.
Suppose a typical fighter is battling a typical monster with a +5 weapon. His first attack needs a roll of 5 or better to hit, meaning the 3rd and 4th attacks hit on a 2. If he's using a rapier, then equipping a bloodstone increases his damage by 15%. But if he were using a khopesh, the bloodstone would boost him by 19%.
Then assume the monster gains +10 AC, so that he needs a 15 to hit with the first swing, and a 5 with the last swing. In that case (which is much rarer, because monsters don't have that much AC) the bloodstone benefits the rapier by 32% and the khopesh by 40%.

If you want to confirm that for yourself, you can step through the attack rolls and add them all up. There are 4 iterative attacks, each needing 20 rolls of attacks, and then 20 possible confirmations for each. That's probably more math than you have time for, but you can stochastically sample the result-space. Or you could use a spreadsheet program to handle the 2*4*20*20=3200 different attacks.

[Gimpster]

Actually you know what, the ratio of the to-hit bonus from seeker does not scale. It's 1/1 (i.e. same +to hit for khopesh and rapier).
Yes, it has the same attack bonus for both khopeshes and rapiers... which means it's more useful for khopeshes. The khopesh has more critical power than a rapier, meaning it gets a bigger fraction of its damage from crits, meaning the bonus to confirm a crit is more helpful to a khopesh than a rapier.

I already described that phenomenon a few pages back.

[Gimpster]

I apologize if my number was incorrect on the holy burst, I was using a bow, and I had assumed it was the same, might be a bugged bow, might be correct, and I read it wrong.
If you pay attention to your combat log with a holy burst bow, you will notice inflicting burst damage as high as 24, meaning it is not doing a mere 3d6 burst.


As far as "force burst", as I haven't seen it yet, and don't know the statistics from it, I will withhold analysis. If you know what its going to do exacctly, please, enlighten us.
Force Burst is already part of DDO, and it does an additional 1d10*(Crit Mult -1).


But I doubt you're the expert.
No, I am the expert.

[Vhlad]

Yes, it has the same attack bonus for both khopeshes and rapiers... which means it's more useful for khopeshes. The khopesh has more critical power than a rapier, meaning it gets a bigger fraction of its damage from crits, meaning the bonus to confirm a crit is more helpful to a khopesh than a rapier.

I already described that phenomenon a few pages back.

I think you're trolling and/or just being silly now. For the rest of the people reading this thread, please notice that:
If you have a critical effect which adds X to a base damage B, irrespective of multiplier (i.e. the ratio is 1/1), this is what happens:

1: 0, 0
2: B, B
3: B, B
4: B, B
5: B, B
6: B, B
7: B, B
8: B, B
9: B, B
10: B, B
11: B, B
12: B, B
13: B, B
14: B, B
15: 2B+X, B
16: 2B+X, B
17: 2B+X, 3B+X
18: 2B+X, 3B+X
19: 2B+X, 3B+X
20: 2B+X, 3B+X

25B+6X vs 27B+4X

This is not the case for seeker + damage (because that has ratio 3/2), but it is the case for the seeker bonus to confirm a crit.

Also notice that the amount of damage derived from the khopesh and rapier off crits is the same (12B in each case).

[Gimpster]

Saying that holy burst benefits the khopesh more than the rapier is, at best, uninformed, and at worst, a downright lie.
And that is a downright strawman.

Nobody in this thread claimed Holy Burst helped a khopesh more than a rapier. In fact, the very first occurance of "Holy Burst" in this thread is when I pointed out that it does not.

[Gimpster]

I think you're trolling and/or just being silly now. For the rest of the people reading this thread, please notice that:
Oh please. Why do you push "reply" to my posts without reading at least enough of it to create the illusion of paying attention? I'm not trolling or joking- I am explaining how damage works in DDO.

For the final time: The reason Bloodstone is better for a khopesh is not because of how much damage it adds on crits, but because it makes you more likely to confirm crits.

A basic weapon (Club 20/x2) gets a chance for 1 extra damage every 20 rolls due to critical hits. A rapier gets a chance for 6 damages from crits. And a khopesh can have up to 8 extra damages. The +6 to confirm crits from the Bloodstone makes it more likely those extra damages will actually happen, which benefits the khopesh more.

If you're not willing to do the math yourself (which is totally understandable, because it takes a serious bit of effort), you're going to have to settle for trusting those who have done the math.

[Vaern]

Once again, you are incorrect, more criticals benefits them both equally. Well. not quite equally, but dependant upon the weapon's affect. Your thundering would benefit the khopesh more, whereas the holy burst would benefit the rapier more.

Why does this logic work?

Because it gives the khopesh more chance to crit, it also gives the rapier the same additional chance, to crit. Its equal. For both sides.

I guess we could start to argue over effective ranges.

Once again, the difference is merely situational.

I personally feel that the additional +1 to hit that the rapier can obtain over the khopesh is going largely unnoticed. as it could allow an additional hit in that 20 hit sequence that isn't being calculated.

[Gimpster]

This is not the case for seeker + damage (because that has ratio 3/2), but it is the case for the seeker bonus to confirm a crit.
No. The seeker bonus to confirm a crit is effectively scaled by Crit Mult -1 (and also by the power of whatever other effects you trigger on crits).

Suppose I'm attacking a monster and need to roll an 11 or better to hit, and I do B damage per normal hit. On a natural 20, I inflict B damage and have a chance to confirm for an extra B. That chance is 50%, so my average damage on a 20 is B+B*(10/20). If I had Fighter Critical Accuracy III (+6 bonus to confirm crits) then the damage is instead B+B*(16/20).
Replace the rapier with a khopesh, and the damage is B+2B*(10/20) base, or B+2B*(16/20) with Critical Accuracy III.

A bonus to attack or to confirm only counts as damage insofar as it helps you to hit or to confirm. After all, if my attack bonus is 55, that's not any better for hitting an AC 10 target than if I had a 9.

[Gimpster]

Once again, you are incorrect, more criticals benefits them both equally. Well. not quite equally, but dependant upon the weapon's affect. Your thundering would benefit the khopesh more, whereas the holy burst would benefit the rapier more.
Yes, holy burst would benefit the rapier more. I don't know why you keep claiming I've said anything to the contrary... I'm not even talking about holy burst.

[Gimpster]

Why does this logic work?
Because it gives the khopesh more chance to crit, it also gives the rapier the same additional chance, to crit. Its equal. For both sides.
That's not logic. It's specious.

If a trap does 150 damage to a sorceror and to a barbarian, do you claim it hurts them both the same? Of course not. That would be silly, because one of those characters is a lot more vulnerable to damage than the other.

Or if a buff gave a sorc and barb both +5 damage per hit, do you say it helps them equally? Of course not, because the barb hits things a lot more.

Likewise, a Critical Accuracy effect that helps you confirm a crit is more useful towards a weapon that gets more of its damage from crits. The rapier and khopesh are fairly close, but a khopesh and club are further away, so the difference is easier to see:
On 20 rolls, a khopesh can get up to 2+2+2+2=8 extra damage opportunities from crits. Since nobody has Improved Critical Bludgeon, the club can only get crits on a natural 20, which means 1 extra damage every 20 rolls. An effect that makes you more likely to confirm a critical hit gives a bigger benefit to the weapon that has the ability to produce more and more damaging crits.

Yes, the bonus to confirm is given to both kinds of weapons equally- but the khopesh gets more use out of it.


I personally feel that the additional +1 to hit that the rapier can obtain over the khopesh is going largely unnoticed. as it could allow an additional hit in that 20 hit sequence that isn't being calculated.
I calculated it way back on page one. In the extreme case, where the monster's AC is exactly high enough, it can give the rapier an advantage of nearly 24% more damage per attack. But that is really a very unusual situation.

[Vhlad]

Gimpster, earlier you claimed that critical effects for longswords and battleaxes were the same because they had the same critical power.

We can more clearly see why your math is wrong if we consider a longsword and battleaxe, which everyone knows have virtually identical crit power. According to your arithmetic, a longsword is 4/20 * 200% = 40 and a battleaxe is 2/20 * 300% = 30. That makes it seem like Seeker gives a greater benefit to swords than to axes, which is false. In reality, the sword is 4 * (2-1)=4 and the axe is 2 *(3-1)=4, so it works out the same.
If this doesn't put an end to the whole "critical power" way of thinking, I'm not sure what will. Compare bloodstone on longsword vs battleaxe.

1: 0, 0
2: B, B
3: B, B
4: B, B
5: B, B
6: B, B
7: B, B
8: B, B
9: B, B
10: B, B
11: B, B
12: B, B
13: B, B
14: B, B
15: B, B
16: B, B
17: 2B+12, B
18: 2B+12, B
19: 2B+12, 3B+18
20: 2B+12, 3B+18

23B+48 vs 23B+36

[Gimpster]

If this doesn't put an end to the whole "critical power" way of thinking, I'm not sure what will.
Before you could refute the concept of Critical Power, you would have to understand what it means- what it's used for, and what it's not used for. But if you understood it, you'd stop trying to argue with it.

The Critical Power quantity, Threat Range * (Crit Mult - 1) predicts
1. How much a weapon will benefit from effects which scale with crits, from Rage and Divine Favor to Shocking Burst and Thundering.
2. How much a weapon will benefit from effects which make crits more likely to confirm.

Seeker certainly qualifies under section #2, and possibly also qualifies under #1. I would have to run DDO and inspect a Seeker weapon to see if the bonus is scaling or not. Whether it does or not, that has no bearing on the correctness of using Critical Power to judge weapons.

[Vaern]

If you pay attention to your combat log with a holy burst bow, you will notice inflicting burst damage as high as 24, meaning it is not doing a mere 3d6 burst.


No need to be a prick and make smartass comments, I was reading the description of the holy burst affect on the weapon, not using one to test the damage range.

"A holy weapon is imbued with holy power. This power makes the weapon good-aligned and thus bypasses the corresponding damage reduction. It deals an extra 2d6 against all of evil alignment and an extra 3d6 on a critical."

There it is. Word for word. Same description on x2, x3, and x4. I'm not saying it is the same, but it reads the same on all the weapons.

[muffinlad]

..... I was reading the description of the holy burst affect on the weapon, not using one to test the damage range.

"A holy weapon is imbued with holy power. This power makes the weapon good-aligned and thus bypasses the corresponding damage reduction. It deals an extra 2d6 against all of evil alignment and an extra 3d6 on a critical."

There it is. Word for word. Same description on x2, x3, and x4. I'm not saying it is the same, but it reads the same on all the weapons.

I have encountered the same confusion myself. It is odd that it reads this way.

I was never sure if Holy Burst did 2d6 normally, and 3 d 6 (or a lousy +1d6 more) if it critted, or a much better 5d6 (2d6 +3d6).

[Jaysensen]

1: 0, 0
2: B, B
3: B, B
4: B, B
5: B, B
6: B, B
7: B, B
8: B, B
9: B, B
10: B, B
11: B, B
12: B, B
13: B, B
14: B, B
15: B, B
16: B, B
17: 2B+12, B
18: 2B+12, B
19: 2B+12, 3B+18
20: 2B+12, 3B+18

23B+48 vs 23B+36

If you do not hit on a 2, say instead a 10... this chart changes because of the confirmation roll. If ya fail your crit roll, you only get B damage.

[Vhlad]

If you do not hit on a 2, say instead a 10... this chart changes because of the confirmation roll. If ya fail your crit roll, you only get B damage.

As stated from when those charts were used initially in this thread, it assumes all crits are confirmed. I was just using it to demonstrate that "critical power" does not give the whole picture, and that it is only valid for very specific scaling, something that Gimpster either didn't realise or something the he failed to articulate well enough to show he realised.

For example, a seeker + X item scales with the crtical multiplier (it gives +X damage to a critical hit before multiplier, so it is +3X for khopesh and +2X for rapier). "Critical power" would predict the khopesh gets more out of the seeker +X damage (when in fact it gets the same critical contribution to damage as the rapier). The reason is, critical-only effects and effects which are applied to both criticals and non-criticals require different (and specific) scaling for "critical power" to give correct predictions.

If the seeker+X was not JUST a critical effect (i.e. if it worked like strength, or weapon specialization, etc), then the "critical power" prediction would be correct. I'll demonstrate this with longsword and battleaxe, since that chart is so close to this post.
....
17: 2B+12, B+6
18: 2B+12, B+6
19: 2B+12, 3B+18
20: 2B+12, 3B+18

Now it's the same. But seeker doesn't work that way. Critical only effects require a (critmult-1)/(critmult-1) ratio for "critical power" analysis to be valid (i.e. thundering is 2/1 (2dX vs 1dX), so it is valid, but seeker, holy burst, axiomatic burst, anarchic burst etc are not). Whereas effects that add to non-critical and critical damage together require a different ratio (critmult/critmult) for "critical power" to be valid. We're probably going to see more and more effects added that don't follow this specific scaling, so hopefully certain people won't be jumping on forums and making sweeping conclusions due to "critical power" anymore.

Now, BACK to your original point:
Even in the case where you fail to hit on a 1 the chart is not fully correct. i.e. you can't add them all up and divide by 20 to get the correct average DPS.

i.e.
+5 holy rapier of righteousness, 32 str, melee attack II, melee damage II, bloodstone, greater heroism, greater weapon focus, greater weapon specialization, improved critical
VS
+5 holy khopesh of righteousness, 34 str, bloodstone, greater heroism, greater weapon focus, greater weapon specialization, improved critical

The average base weapon damage, B, is 27.5 for rapier and khopesh (you can work it out yourself or look at the damage tool). To this, 2d6 from holy (which is 7 avg) is added for every attack, and +12 is added for rapier critical and +18 for khopesh).

In the low AC range (i.e. where a 1 is a miss), you have:
(1/20)*0 + (13/20)*(B+7) + (6/20)*(2B+12+7)*(19/20) + (6/20)*(B+7)*(1/20)
That last term is missing from the chart.

Anyway, if we work this out for the rapier with B=27.5 we have:
0 + 22.425 + 21.09 + 0.5175 = 44.0325

This is exactly the number we see for the rapier (without power attack), in the melee damage tool:
http://www.afterlifeguild.org/Thott/ddo/analyze.php?1label=enhanced+rapier&1bab=14&1atktype=1h&1spm=60&1phd=1d6%2B9&1phed=2d6&1phth=13&1phthreat=18-20%2Fx2&1phxcrit=12&1phefocus=on&1phespec=on&1phcrit=on&1ohd=1d4&1ohed=0&1ohth=0&1ohthreat=18-20%2Fx2&1ohxcrit=&1str=32&1dex=22&1pwr=on&1sneakpct=0&1sneakd=1d6&1cleavepct=0&2label=human+khopesh&2bab=14&2atktype=1h&2spm=60&2phd=1d8%2B7&2phed=2d6&2phth=11&2phthreat=19-20%2Fx3&2phxcrit=18&2phefocus=on&2phespec=on&2phcrit=on&2ohd=&2ohed=&2ohth=&2ohthreat=&2ohxcrit=&2str=34&2dex=22&2pwr=on&2sneakpct=&2sneakd=&2cleavepct=&report=on&minac=10&maxac=70

Edit: This was assuming 60 swings per min to make the math a little easier to follow (thought I should mention that).

[Jaysensen]

I was just using it to demonstrate that "critical power" does not give the whole picture.


Sorry, my point was that the chart I quoted doesnt illustrate the whole picture either.

People need to understand that all of this theory and discussion really does assume a lot of different things, it takes a specific application with various assumptions to make a complete discussion. Players should try to walk away from this thread with conceptual understanding at a higher level, rather than any specific number.


BTW, thanks for the explanation, though I do understand how it works ^^

[Aranticus]

I have encountered the same confusion myself. It is odd that it reads this way.

I was never sure if Holy Burst did 2d6 normally, and 3 d 6 (or a lousy +1d6 more) if it critted, or a much better 5d6 (2d6 +3d6).

this is an acknowledged error in description. the funny thing is that people read and take these information seriously, but a large number do not even bother to read the EULA :D

holy burst rapier = +2d6 on normal hit, +5d6 on crit
holy burst khopesh = +2d6 on normal hit, +6d6 on crit
holy burst pick = +2d6 on normal hit, +7d6 on crit

they are the same as axiomatic/anarchic burst weapons. heh heh... my pally has an axiomatic burst heavy pick of pure good... pure carnage... 4d6+7d6+1d6 base weapon damage on a crit :D

[Elurian]

In case some people are unclear...

Plus 100% means double. Plus 200% means triple. Thats the mathematical definition of percent.


If I spend half the amount of time reading this thread
that is decreasing the amount of time I spend by 50%.

If I spend twice the amount of time reading this thread
that is increasing the amount of time I spend by 100%.

If I spend three times the amount of time reading this thread
that is increasing the amount of time I spend by 200%.

Correct, and it is an important distinction to draw when discussing critical hits because otherwise people tend to forget to subtract out the base damage when multiplying the additional damage by the probability of a crit. They are effectively saying the same thing, but people tend to overestimate the impact of the critical hit by including the base damage.

[Protagoras]

this is an acknowledged error in description. the funny thing is that people read and take these information seriously, but a large number do not even bother to read the EULA :D

holy burst rapier = +2d6 on normal hit, +5d6 on crit
holy burst khopesh = +2d6 on normal hit, +6d6 on crit
holy burst pick = +2d6 on normal hit, +7d6 on crit

they are the same as axiomatic/anarchic burst weapons. heh heh... my pally has an axiomatic burst heavy pick of pure good... pure carnage... 4d6+7d6+1d6 base weapon damage on a crit :D

Are we sure on that? I do not say this contentiously but because I THOUGHT Holy Burst worked like you state above, but then a guildie told me differently so I read the description and it sure seemed to suggest it was +2d6 on a normal hit and +5d6 on a crit regardless of the weapons multiplier.

This would make a huge difference to me, as do I stop trying to collect Axiomatic and Anarchic burst weapons if I can get a Holy Burst of the same sort? I.e. specifically Holy Burst Heavy Pick is GREAT if it works above.. but if its a static 5d6 extra I would rather have both a Axio and Anar Burst.

[Gimpster]

Are we sure on that? I do not say this contentiously but because I THOUGHT Holy Burst worked like you state above, but then a guildie told me differently so I read the description
The description is wrong. Test a holy burst weapon yourself and see (the easiest way to test it is the scrags on Atraxia's Haven, because they are unkillable and you can hit as long as it takes to get your crits)